Speaker 1 (09:53.522)
Welcome, welcome to this edition of At the Mic. I am your host, Keith Malinak. I am so grateful that you make time for the Thursday deep dive as you have today. Thank you so much. And my goodness, do we have a conversation today that we are going to, I'm going to be bringing in my guest here momentarily who is a survivor of MK Ultra and MK Ultra.

Not a conspiracy theory. No, it's definitely not. It is an absolute real thing that your tax dollars helped fund. One thing we often do on this program is unveil atrocities that have been done with your tax dollars and in your name many times.

And today we do need to get into the topic of MKUltra and its very real victims and what has been perpetrated on so many unwilling participants. So I do hope you're having a good day today. I want to make sure that you're aware that the show is available. Let me get the annoying banner off of there. I'm sorry. The show is available at themikeshow.com. Hero Wes always putting everything up there. If you don't know the routine,

It's live now on X obviously and then tonight at eight o'clock Eastern. It's gonna be available on YouTube and rumble and then tomorrow at 9 a.m. Eastern it then appears magically on Spotify and iTunes and other locales all thanks to Wes be sure to follow him at second floor Dallas on X that is Wes's handle and Don't forget we've got Gabby who is at Jeffy apologists got my fancy computer graphics here

She runs the Instagram pages at the Mike show. Follow her over there and all the great stuff that she does for this show. So thank you again for making time to join us. Let me get my guest in here. Bill Yarborough. Bill, welcome into the program, sir. I'm grateful that you made time today. And I will say that this has to be difficult for you to relive and talk about.

Speaker 1 (12:14.798)
But I think it's important and I appreciate you making time, Well, thank you for having me on, Keith. Appreciate it. So you're the author of the book, Memories of MK Ultra. It's available at Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Please check this book out. There's so much to this conversation. We're going to see how much of it that we're able to cover today because it is very involved.

And I honestly, here's what I want to do, Bill. Let's see if you'll be up for having a conversation that starts with the history of the program. Let's go way back. Let's go to the 50s and 60s. Work our way up to when it involved you and then right up to today. Are you up for that? Sure. OK, very good. so for those that may not be and you please at any point, Bill, that I have something wrong, jump in there, interrupt me. Please don't let me.

speak erroneously on anything because there's so much to this topic and I don't want to screw it up, but I guess I guess long story short What would you say the MK ultra was our government's? experimenting on unwilling participants mind control basically right My control and several other things surrounding that we'll get into okay. All right, so I guess the story picks up really in Nazi Germany, right? That's

where they started experimenting first. Yeah, Hitler had an interest in it for sure. And so then out of World War II, we then get into Operation Paperclip. And a lot of people are familiar with it, but a lot of people are not. Could you please explain Operation Paperclip as we begin to tell this story of MKUltra? Sure, sure. So after World War II was over,

the United States and actually, you know, the Soviet Union as well, began to look at talent that they could get out of the remains of Nazi Germany and bring them to the United States. So the most famous case of Bernabéon Brown is he was Hitler's chief rocket engineer and he designed and actually oversaw the building of them and the V2 rockets, you know, bombed London.

Speaker 1 (14:35.764)
and did a lot of damage. So not a popular figure over there. But when the war was over, the United States decided that, it would be great to bring him over because he was way ahead of where we were in rocket engineering and put him in charge of our rocket program. So he basically was. He developed the rockets for all of the, you Mercury and Gemini and Apollo. He built, designed the Saturn V rocket that got us to the moon.

Yeah. Interestingly enough, I'm going to be talking about some connections in my family that are involved with Operation Paperclip. So actually, Bernard Brown, his mother was my mother's godmother. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I don't think he was involved with MKUltra. He was very involved, of course, the space program, the rocket program. But that's an interesting thing. The other thing about my family that's particularly important is, you know,

You know, they I mentioned the rocket engineering they were interested in, but they were also interested in people that were developing things in Nazi Germany involving biochemistry or chemical warfare. So they try to bring those people over. And then one of the reasons that they did that is because the Nazis did experiments that, you know, up until that time, at least America would never do. So these people experimented on like humans.

and they learned from it, so we wanted to get that knowledge. But they also did mind control at Dachau and some other of the prison camps. And so my father, I was a soldier in World War II, but when it was over, his sister had married a German and her husband had died in the war and she had four kids. So he decided to stay there and help her out. He was a lawyer and joined the war crimes branch.

the war crimes branch, you know, went in there to interview the SS officers that ran the death camps and to look for crimes against humanity. But they also had the secret message mission of Operation Paperclip that if anybody looked like they had expertise we could use, they would put a paperclip on their file. Wow. would be evaluated. And you know, no matter how many people they might have slaughtered.

Speaker 1 (17:02.786)
been involved with slaughtering at the death camps, that was forgiven. And they were given a new identity and brought to the United States. So part of the individuals who belonged to MK Alter were those folks. And I think that's somehow how we got sucked into it. And I'll get into that more later. But I think my father would have known some of these people that came in to work in the MK Alter program. And it was also Japan.

the imperialist Japanese, you know, had expertise too. So they looked for individuals, particularly I think it came with weapons and chemical warfare to come to the US as well. So do we know, and that's fascinating, I've known what Operation Paperclip was all about, but I was not aware of where it got that name.

And that is fascinating. And that's, they put it in the files to kind of earmark some of the people that might have some, I almost said good, some, I guess, useful information or expertise for Americans and our government. Okay. They did not keep it a secret that Vernon Brown came over. That was very well publicized. But these mind control folks, that was very much under wraps. So do we know

what MKUltra stands for. I always assumed it was mind control, ultra top secret, something like that. Do you know if that's accurate? I'm not sure. Well, there's a bit of controversy. I've actually talked to people who were in the CIA, several individuals, and they helped me out some there. But basically, MK was used for the technical service group.

for any project they created. it was, and then there was a dash and they gave them names and most of them were just randomly chosen, you know. But some people believe and some, you know, good authors on the topic think that ultra was because it was ultra secret. Yeah. Yeah. Ultra sensitive. And that's why I was given the ultra. Okay. I mean, this is a very dark topic.

Speaker 1 (19:25.804)
that I should have been clearer on, I think, at the beginning here. We're going to get into some stuff here that has happened through the CIA in the MKUltra program. the fact that the root of this nasty tree is Nazi Germany says it all, quite frankly. And there's a case with Jimmy Shaver.

in the 1950s. I don't have the exact year here, but my understanding and my reading and listening to other shows on this topic, it's almost like that was the beginning of this. And Jimmy Shaver was, it's believed. I don't know that it's ever been proven, but it's believed that he was a victim of MK Ultra.

The way the story goes is a little girl named, is it Cherie Jo Horton? She was, I forget how old, maybe four years old. She's very young and she is left in the parking lot with her brother in the family vehicle while the parents go into this bar near the base there and she is raped and murdered. And it's by Jimmy Shaver.

is how they trace it back. so I don't know how much you can speak to this case. But if I recall, it was under hypnosis that he, I guess, admitted to the crime. I don't know, admittedly, too much about it other than just he's believed to be patient zero, if I'm not mistaken. Do you have any knowledge on that case? Well, I've heard of the case.

and I haven't done extensive research on it, but I don't think he was patient zero. okay. When that occurred, oh, they were doing that kind of stuff, you know, starting in the 50s, you know. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, that's right, because we have Frank Olson. Yeah. Who jumped out of a window after being slipped LSD that he wasn't knowledgeable about. And in fact, President Ford

Speaker 1 (21:54.158)
ended up apologizing to Frank Olson's family in the 70s. So it's fascinating. And we need to get through the story of how this was, how it was even revealed, the whole project. Okay. Well, yeah, that's a good place to go on how it was revealed. They did keep it very secret. I've met people who were in the CIA back then who said they had no idea.

Very few were aware of this, Very few was aware. was very sensitive for obvious reasons. so I might talk a little bit first about a few things they did that would give your listeners an idea. A lot of them probably know this, but they used electric shock and they used psychedelic drugs and they used isolation and they used psychological assault and other forms of torture.

Yeah. And it's not so much just that they did those things, but with some people, they did them to extreme degrees that created vegetable like states. those are some of the reasons why they wanted to keep it. They clearly violated ethical issues and legal issues. And on American citizens too. Yeah, on American citizens, Canadian citizens.

some German citizens. they, so, you know, it actually started in 53. It ran through Lyndon Johnson, shut it down in 64. There was another project that took over after it called NK Search that continued the psychic stuff, you know, and I'll talk more about that later because that was a big part of it. And so,

A couple of things happened in 1973, the New York Times put out a front page article dealing with how Nixon, and this was part of the Watergate scandal, was using the CIA illegally. So that was the first kind of big revelation that Nixon was doing that. But it did not have anything to do with MKUltra. Then another individual in 74 published an article about what he called widespread illegal domestic

Speaker 1 (24:21.548)
CIA activity. know, their charter is international, not domestic. Right. So they were very involved in, know, bugging, you know, the hippie leaders, you know, the, you know, like those organizations that the Black Panthers or the SDS, you know, there were a number of them. So, so the Senate decided, OK, this doesn't sound good. What happened with the CIA in Watergate?

And now we're hearing about all this other stuff that was going on. So we're going to investigate. Richard Helms was a director of the CIA for Nixon at the time. He actually started MKUltra. He was very involved in setting it up. So he immediately told Sidney Gottlieb, the individual who ran MKUltra for many years, to destroy all the records.

And yet before the Senate, it subpoenaed them. And so they did, but they forgot about the financial records. And there was other records buried with those financial records. so the, was called the church committee of the United States Senate, Frank Church chaired the committee and they began to get all of this documentation. And that led to MK ultra, you know, they, they got.

from the financial records, they had a whole list of every one of the 149 projects. And then they began to dig in and a lot of the people were involved, of course, still living because this is, we're talking about 1975, you know, it wasn't that long ago that it was running. So they uncovered it basically. And then, of course, a lot of journalists plunged in and they, I guess, one individual named Mark Roberts, he wrote

the search for the Manchurian, John Marx is his name, the search for the Manchurian candidate. And so he, with the Freedom of Information Act, he got all the records and just went through them and dug out other things that the church committee didn't uncover. Also, President Ford created the Rockefeller Commission to investigate MK Alter as well. And as you mentioned, the Frank Olsen incident came out of that. So the

Speaker 1 (26:47.704)
So that's basically how it got out there. I guess we might get into is, some people think that this was just the CIA. Basically, the CIA, they did operate some of these programs, but the vast majority of them, they funded other organizations to run them, oftentimes without letting them know that it was the CIA who was behind it. Sometimes they did know, but they went to major universities.

You know, like Harvard, Stanford, major hospitals. They got other agencies, the federal government involved. It's how we got the Unabomber. The Unabomber they claim came from the Harvard program. Ken Kesey, know, won flu over Cuckoo's Nest. He worked at the mental hospital that MK Alter got to. So basically, and he was actually aware.

that InfiAltra was involved, or the CIA was involved. so it, and corporations, so, know, the paranoia that existed over communism in the 1950s drove a lot of this. They were convinced the Russians were developing advanced mind control. And, you know, some, I'm sure a number of your listeners know about the McCarthy era.

where, I mean, some people don't realize just how bad it got. I met an individual who worked at Berkeley University, you know, sort of the, you know, the most radical university in the late 60s and early 70s when that movement got going, when the counterculture was going on. And he said he was fired in his job in the 50s because he made several liberal statements.

So that was what it was like. So I guess what I want to point out is that some of these experiments were conducted by those kinds of institutions. It's so interesting how the programs from this era all seem to point back to, well, we have to stop the communist takeover of the world.

Speaker 1 (29:09.55)
And it's almost like a generation later, it was, well, we have to stop terrorism from taking over the world. So that's how we justify. always have to have, the government always has to have someone, a boogeyman, if you will. And I'm not saying there's not legitimate concerns on both communism and Islamic terrorism. That's not the case. The point is you don't abuse Americans and take their civil liberties from them.

and their right to their own bodily autonomy. And I want to get into your story because the title of today's show is Surviving MK Ultra because that involves you and your story. And my goodness, you walk us through, like, pick up the story wherever you want to. I don't know if you want to start when you were a child going through this.

Or would you rather pick it up later when you realized, oh my gosh, I went through MKUltra? Because I don't know, are you familiar with the show Alias at all, with Jennifer Garner from 20, 30 years ago? If not, that's OK. Yeah, I've heard of it, yeah. It's effectively what you went through. That's right. That's right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, that is right. Tell us your story, however you feel like. And I think one more thing I want to hit upon from a historical standpoint before I go to that is just see

Most people don't realize the enormous society and impact on society MK Alter has. It's just not these Americans that we're experimenting on, but what comes as a surprise to a lot of people is the LSD, I mean, the CIA owned all the LSD in the world. They became obsessed, there was a predecessor to MK Alter called AutoChoke, and before that it was Bluebird.

the guy that was running Autochoke heard that these Indian shamans had this magic mushrooms in Mexico that could provide a gateway into the divine. You could approach the infinite, communicate with entities unknown to science. so he became obsessed with getting a hold of that. So Sidney Gottlieb, who took over, who set up MKUltra, you know,

Speaker 1 (31:32.394)
knew about that, so he wanted to get into that. he, one of the sub-projects of MKUltra was to hire this American banker who had gone to one of those secret ceremonies and he would lead a CIA agent to that ceremony and get their hands on that magic mushroom. so he didn't know the CIA was behind it, supposedly. so the agent got it.

he took it and he got very sick because he wasn't going into it for spiritual reasons, which is what the banker did. He actually wrote a big article in Life magazine about how wondrous this experience was in the 50s. then Sandy Gottlieb, who was a chemist, the MKLTRA people were to a significant extent chemists. were at Fort Dittrick or then Camp Dittrick, Maryland, where they

were doing their chemical research and they developed the drug filociven. So they took the LSD and the filociven and other psychedelics and sent them to the universities throughout the country. I'm so I'm I'm so grateful that you paused in and visited that part of the story because the drug culture of the 1960s is a direct result of the CIA funneling this stuff into under college campuses, into urban centers.

And we've talked about this with the Colonel, Colonel Towner Watkins on previous episodes here about the mic. mean, this is, it's absolutely insidious. So many things that our government has done to American citizens. And you can justify this stuff all the way to your blue in the face. But it's like...

It's almost like Operation Fast and Furious. Like, come on. Really, that's what we're doing. We're giving guns to drug cartels and we're going to track them. It's the most convoluted justification every time. And I'm so glad that you hit the pause button there because yes, the drug culture of the 60s and then the war on drugs even later, a direct result of the CIA being America's pusher. Right. I mean, it obviously didn't turn out what they...

Speaker 1 (33:56.204)
It did not turn out the way they wanted. Or did it? I mean, seriously. course they began to outlaw all of those drugs. you know, Timothy Larry said, everything I am. You he was a big drug guru, you know, at Harvard University, the professor. And he said, everything I am, I owe to the foresight of the CIA scientists. John Lennon liked to say, we must always remember to thank the CIA and the Army for LSD.

Yeah. So, but there are other societal impacts. And maybe I'll save that for later, but how they use the MK Ultra Manual to overthrow governments. Yes. yes. And those kinds of things. But going back to my story now, I think I'll start out with just describing, you know, what happened, and then I'll talk about how it came back to us. But yeah, in the summer of 1958,

My brother, my sister and I, my sister was eight, I was four, my brother was two, were placed into what I believe is a MK Ultra program and would say experimented upon us and electric shock, psychedelic drugs, isolation. We all three independently remembered we were kept in jail cells.

and you know, went on and it was.

you know, very severe. We were separated from our parents. Luckily... That's what I want to ask you. That's what I want ask you. And I don't want you to leave out any detail that you're comfortable sharing. that's the one question I want to ask from the get-go here is, what do you think your parents knew? And when you say separated from your parents and in a jail cell...

Speaker 1 (35:54.446)
how long of a stretch are we talking? Is this like a day camp where you're going for the day and you're getting picked up or are you separated for a long period of time here, Bill? Yeah, it was the summer of 1958 and we were completely separated. We were in this, in my book, I call it the gateway school and there were other children there. And I do want to point out that a lot of the literature up until fairly recently really did not get into

that this was done to children. I mean, the book, The Search for the Manchurian Candidate, I don't think he makes any reference to that. But one of the best books is Poisoner in Chief by Stephen Kinser. it was very well reviewed by the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, NPR. And he gets into the fact they did this to kids. And he has five examples he goes into where.

they were given electric shock or drugs or isolated. Honestly, until your story, I didn't, and I think Kara even said something, no, Jeffy, I apologize that I always assumed it would be adults. I had not heard children at all until getting familiar with your story before today's conversation. Yeah. mean, since we were talking about how it broke, the children's story broke really in the 1990s.

When Bill Clinton created, President Clinton created the experiment on the commission on radiation experiments where the army, you know, exposed people without their consent or knowledge to radiation. I might, I do want to add real quick that one good thing came out of the church hearing. The National Research Act they passed and sometimes they say 73, sometimes they say 74.

It mandated that all experiments on humans must have full disclosure and signed consent. Because it wasn't just the CIA who did this, it was universities and hospitals throughout the country that did these experiments without getting signed consent. And no, I mean, I met a woman who was in a mental hospital when she was young and MKUltra experimented on her. She had no idea. She found out later.

Speaker 1 (38:22.712)
So that was good that I have friends who are in the medical research work and they say, yeah, that stuff is now followed. It's very much at her to in the medical research community. So as far as she knows, but they found out in these hearings that the CIA sprinkled radiation on children's cereal as one of the MK Altar project.

And so they had some children come testify before the committee. And these were adult, not children, but these were adults who were children when that was done. And they said, well, can we tell you about all the other things?

And that's when they got into the jail cells, electric shock, the psychedelics, also the sex abuse, you know, that went on. And so this made this this this this was testimony. was recorded. It went out on the Internet. And and so that's actually how we began to remember this stuff long before that committee was created.

You know, we remembered the stuff. But when that was put out there and articles were written about it, that's how we figured out it was the MKL2 program. Because they said the exact same things that we remembered. so, yeah, they ended up not including that other stuff in their report since the charter was just radiation experiments. But that was another big way that the abuse of children was exposed.

But back any questions on that before I go back to our show? yeah, so the summer of 1958 is when this happened to you. Is that the entirety of the time frame that we're going to be addressing here as far as what happened to you? Is it? I don't want to say confined, but is it that time period that we're talking about specifically? Yes, yeah. The summer of 1958. so and you were only four, correct?

Speaker 1 (40:32.884)
My sister was eight. OK, so eight, four and two, you said, right? Right. OK, so you were four. What have you and maybe your sister has more memories? I don't know, but. Can you walk us through that that summer? In other words, were your parents saying like, first of all, do you know what what was it referred to in the family as hey, we're taking you to?

day camp or we're taking you what was it called and and was it was it from start i'm just trying to figure out was it from start to finish we drop you off in may we pick you up in august or was it a everyday thing yeah no no no no we were it was not it was we were we were part of the there's another book that i'll refer to later called the shock doctrine part of the mk ultra protocol was to put people into a state of shock immediately

So actually the way they wanted to pick us up was they nabbed us in the Swissmonian Institute in Washington DC. We lived not that far from Washington DC and I guess our parents knew they were gonna pick us up there, but they may not have known the reason why they wanted us to pick us up that way. So we felt like we were kidnapped. This guy just came and took us and then brought us to a psychiatrist office in Washington and then he talked to us for a while and then we were shipped off.

to rural Maryland where this program was being conducted. The reason why they do electric shock and isolation is to put the mine into a state of shock so it kind of collapses. And then you can program into it what you want. And that's kind of the essence of it. So as a child, you were having a day at the Smithsonian Institute and kidnapped

to your understanding. But your parents thought something different. Well, talk about what our parents thought then. It's the way my book opens. It opens with the kids being nabbed at the museum. Let me get that title out there again before we get any further. The book is Memories of MKUltra by William Yarbrough. And it's at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, all of the places. Yeah, many other places, OK. Very good.

Speaker 1 (43:00.056)
There it is. Yeah. what we my brother and I remembered our parents saying to us, you're going to go to this special school. That's what they call it. And you're going to have fantastic futures. And that's kind of all I remember that they ever said about. After our memory blocks collapsed many years later, I may as well talk about when I confronted my parents.

And I will let you know kind of what may have been going on with them. It was very eerie. Before I do that, I'll say that there were several goals that the CIA had in mind or MPL had in mind. One was mind control, when you've mentioned that. But the other one was interrogation techniques. How do you interrogate people and get them to reveal secrets? You you've got a Russian agent or Chinese agent.

And the other one is how do you prevent American agents if captured from revealing what happened, what their mission is, what they're up to? Always a justification for their insidious experiments. Right. So their idea was create a split personality and have the subperson, you know, the whole born identity stuff is kind of like that. put in a subpersonality that knows the mission, but the primary personality does not know the mission. Wow. And

And that was, know, Kessner, Gissend, you know, that kind of stuff. And we'll get into it later. But they had other objectives. They had to do with the psychic realm, know, psychic spying, reading minds and all that. So that was a kind of a where they were, I think, particularly interested in the shamans. So and then reaching into other other dimensions with these psychedelic drugs gateway into the divine.

So they, when I confronted my father, we didn't know it was MKUltra at that time yet. This was just before the Clinton commission, the radiation experiment commission made things public. But we remembered all the details. So I brought him up and described it to him. And his...

Speaker 1 (45:22.898)
His reaction right away was very bizarre. said, well, that sounds like the kind of program your mother would have put you into when you went when I was in the Korean War. I said, well, I wasn't born when you were in the Korean War. This was the summer of 1958. You were there. Well, I don't know anything about that. And then you glanced over shoulder and no one else was in the house and he knew it. And then he began to whisper in a totally different voice and just say, those were fine people.

ran that program, but they couldn't control their dark impulses. And then his voice would go to normal, I don't know what you're talking about. And he went back and forth.

That's okay. So you were an adult at this point when you're a conversation with him. so I don't want to get too personal here, but were you close to your father? In other words, was this kind of reaction shocking out of character or, know, like because if my... I would say it was certainly shocking and out of character, although I had, I wanted to...

rare occasions and so had my sister encountered this other person that had a different voice and

brought up really disturbing stuff. That was completely out of character. I mean, I remember I was just like shocked. So that, so I'd had at least one or two instances of that, you where that had occurred before, but it was very brief. And, my sister was, he came to visit my sister and that character came out while he was there and she couldn't, couldn't believe it. So, then, but.

Speaker 1 (47:13.474)
But I just thought he's a split. maybe, you know, he was always a split. Maybe there's other reasons. Maybe it wasn't the CIA that created this split character. Do you think he was ever experimented on? Well, that's why I think I got the feeling they were monkey. I got the feeling that they were trying to get a, I think they were promised money too. I can't be sure. And again, I don't know any of this was a certainty. And you know, the reason why my book is a fiction.

is because, you know, I can't be certain, you know, about my memories. They gave us, you I was four, the memories were repressed for 30 years, psychedelic drugs, isolation, you know, electric shock. I will say, though, that we remembered these things many times independently, like that we were in jail cells. And we had the exact same memories, which sort of made us believe it.

And then when that Clinton, you know, testimony occurred to that radiation experiments, those people described the same things we experienced. So we began to think it was it was true. But, you know, so.

I think my feeling is with my mother is that also she flew into a rage when I brought it up. You are not out of my sight for three minutes the whole time you were growing up. goodness. I went on to Boy Scout camp. I the night there. It sounds like they had some guilt. Absolutely. They had guilt. Okay. It could have caused the memories to be repressed.

One of the techniques that helped us confirm our memories is that we had an earlier, well, I'll get into that story when I talk about how the memories broke down. So I think we were in the program, I'm guessing the summer of 1958. I still remember that she was a very popular, you know, I wasn't yet in school, but at eight years old, she was in school. And she said, I was a very popular kid. I loved school. And then

Speaker 1 (49:29.966)
One day I woke up and I couldn't remember the whole summer. And then I was a frightened girl in school. didn't like to talk, stayed in the back of the class. there's, you know, and the other thing I did to test this out is I knew my mother took constant pictures, you know, of us growing up, you know. And and I want to point out at this point is I do have a

a website, BillYarbo.com website. I actually have a picture in there that I think was taken right after I was out of the program. And they were all dated by the developer at the store that dated them. And so I knew she had a trunk full of this stuff. also my grandmother.

who lived in Germany when I visited her one time had quizzed extensively about what things were like that summer, that time period. She said, what were your parents like? And this was before the memory blocks collapsed. She said, what were your parents like? They do weird things. Wondering why she was asking me these questions and I couldn't, my head started spinning, but I couldn't remember anything. And then she said, you know, the letters she wrote.

were very weird and almost incoherent. Interesting. That's why we invited you to come to Germany in the summer of 59 so we could make sure you OK. Very interesting. And somehow both of them got very normal by 1960. Very normal. But I went to that trunk. And there were pictures in 1958, many pictures of January, February, March, April, none from May.

May, June, and July, and then they pick up in August. Just no pictures. Wow. Okay, so if this were to happen in 1958, it's fair to say you were born what, 1954, Bill? Right. January. January 54. So if I jump around, never fear, we're going to give you plenty of time to tell this story.

Speaker 1 (51:51.438)
But when it really came to the surface for you and your siblings, correct me if I'm wrong, you were 35 years old, October 1989. Explain what happened there to bring all of these memories to the surface. Oh, okay, yeah. You're right in saying that that was a very significant time, October of 1989. But that's when we remembered the Indian boy.

that I mentioned earlier, and I'll get back to that. But no, actually it started, the very first inkling of it was when my brother became, he was in his early 20s, 23, and he just had an extreme psychotic episode. He had been meditating. Up until that point, he'd been normal. But often they say that that's if somebody's going to have psychotic breaks and develop mental illness, frequently it occurs. Certainly, that's what the therapist told me that he had over the years.

at that age, around that age. I mean, obviously there's exceptions to that, but that's a typical kernel. So hold on a second. This is very interesting. So he was early 20s. So if he was born in what, 56-ish. So now we're talking about late 70s then. He has a psychotic episode. You said it was while he was meditating? He was just during that period, he was doing lots of meditation, lots of yoga.

So if he had stayed, and I realize this is speculative, but if he had just stayed down here with the rest of us, then maybe this stays blocked for his entire life for the most part. But I'm hung up on this meditation got him to a place where I guess what, did he access some of these repressed memories from being two years old? What did therapists feel is that he accessed the memories?

And they came back too fast, overwhelming. They're overwhelming his psyche. The other thing is he was only two years old. So he was much more vulnerable. And his therapist had told me, that age, it would be much more damaging. And that he managed to keep it together until his early 20s. Part of this is linked to the Indian boy. The Indian boy did a lot of things to try to lessen the impact of what was going on to us that the people running the program didn't know about.

Speaker 1 (54:15.182)
because he was our guard. They had brought him up to use him in psychedelic experiments, but I think he faked, you know, he had had mine altering plants, I think, back in Mexico. So he knew how to... And how old was he, this Indian boy who was your guard? 14. 14? I believe he was 14. And I think they were interested in him because...

You know, my sister was in there psychedelic. Yeah, they didn't do the same things with us. They were trying to groom my brother to become a military type person. They were trying to groom my sister to they were giving her psychedelics. You know, she was one of the kids they were just giving because they this mind expansion stuff. I mean, Sidney Gottlieb, who ran MKUltra, you understand the duality of this whole program and of him on one hand, you know.

He meditated, know, went with his wife to India to help the people in the leprosy camps. He was into the evolution, you know, conscious expansion in positive ways. Yet on the other hand, he hired all these Nazis and oversaw all of these experiments. So, yeah, it's just a weird, weird duality.

one extreme and then the other extreme. And so I think he was interested in, you know, I'm guessing, I never could understand why this boy was in the program until I read Stephen Kessner's book. I said, well, what is he doing there? You know, this kid was very advanced. He was, you he knew how to do shamanic journeys and things like that. And when I read that book, then I found out how interested they were in, know, Indian shamanic.

So I guess they brought him up there for that reason. But back to your point, I think it was a combination of when my brother started meditating, it may have helped him remember the Indian boy. And then, of course, all the bad things are also done. And it just became too much. Yeah, I can't I cannot imagine this. so when you did that, go ahead. I was just going to say when you talked about confronting your parents, what

Speaker 1 (56:42.26)
What year was that? Do you know? yeah. No, confronted my father in 1980s. It would have been 19, I think around 1985, 19 something like that. They came down for to visit us for Thanksgiving. And then my wife made sure she took my mother off. know, I didn't want my mother around.

kids around. that's when it was, it was more, it was actually delayed eighties, excuse me, the late, the late eighties after the session in October of 89. Is that right? Or no, had, was before actually, actually, let's see. It would have been.

Speaker 1 (57:34.717)
after the session in October of 89. So we moved from Texas, we lived in Texas at the time, we moved from Texas to California in 1990. So the only thing I'm getting at Bill is I don't know when your parents passed away. Excuse me, was the 90s, it was the late 90s. shouldn't have said late 80s. That's okay, that's okay. So 1989, the memories

surface in the therapy sessions. Late 90s, you confront your parents. How long from the confrontation of your parents to their passing? And what I'm getting at is I'd like to know how long they lived with them knowing that you knew what they were responsible for. And I just wondered how many conversations were you able to have with them about what you went through as a child?

Yeah, that's a very interesting question. They died fairly rapidly after those conversations. I confronted my mother a number of years later after I confronted my father, and he passed, you know, they both passed away within a year after those conversations. Wow. Okay. And they were in their 80s. going back real quick. Yes, please. I had mentioned that 1989 was when we remembered the Indian boy.

But actually, going back to my brother's psychotic episode, he made a lot of statements. And then I had a memory that kind of came out of nowhere. He told me to read this book and that I don't want to get into everything that's in the book. But I began to remember that as a child, I was at this big, terrifying place. But it just was so.

disconnected to what I remembered about my childhood that I just let it go. So that was in 79. But that was the first time I had a dim inkling. And then in 1986, my sister, while she was sleeping, had a vision in which she was told we had repressed the memories of an important part of our childhood. And she tried to remember but couldn't. It was too terrifying.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00.926)
And then the vision said, you your entire lives would change if you remember this, you know, go from a dark course to a positive course. And she couldn't do it. And then it finally said, wake up your brother and tell him, and he will remember.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24.421)
So she woke me up in the middle of the night, telling me about the vision. And actually it wasn't the first repressed memory that surface was not of the MK Ultra program. It was of my mother being in a psychotic state around that same, just after we were released from the MK Ultra program in which she tried to kill us with a butchering. And so as my sister and I, so.

As I began to remember this, my sister was wisely said, OK, put it in your mind exactly where you were standing, I was standing, my brother was standing, where my mother came from, what was she doing, what was the lighting like. Let's get it completely filled up because we don't want to be feeding each other things that we suddenly remember because she knew about the fact that you've got to be very careful with this stuff. So we did.

And then we compared Nolten, it was exactly the same thing to the tea. Gosh. And our mother came out of it. We were in the dining room. It was night. It was dark in the dining room, but the kitchen light was on. She was carrying a butch and I, and she came toward us. And then our father came in and stopped her. And then actually years later, to my mother's enormous credit.

When my father, my brother first confronted her about this knife incident, she flew into a rage and she called me up and said, how could you and your sister tell your brother this? You know, he's mentally ill, it's very disturbing. Nothing like that happened. But to her enormous credit, four years later, she wanted to meet with me in private and she said, the memory came back.

Speaker 1 (01:02:12.258)
You you there was a little bit. I said I had never described what happened to her nor had my brother. So I said, so describe it in detail. What do you remember? And it was identical. So that really confirmed that. The things that happened in 1958. We could compare notes with each other, fill it out, and that actually the perpetrator who did it.

would confirm it to the team. Okay. So we developed when we began to remember the MKUltra stuff in 1988, they started to come out and oddly enough, was my brother. I brought my brother down to San Antonio. I had him placed in a mental hospital. He'd been in mental hospitals before, but I wanted to get him away from my parents and they wanted, you know, they

it was very hard on them to handle him. So I put him into a really good mental hospital in San Antonio and near where I lived. And then we began to do therapy sessions and things and you know.

We actually wasn't in therapy that I said. I mean, and then my brother began to share this stuff and then I began to remember it and then my sister began to remember it. And the same thing independently remembering the jail cells. My sister was swept up in the late 60s counter-toledo movement. So she had a lot of experience with psychedelics as a teenager. And she got out of that. But I mean, she was totally into that. And so when we began to remember things, she said, you know,

I know what it's like to be in psychedelics. And I'm remembering that's what was going on back then. my goodness. We thought it was very weird. This was before we knew they were doing stuff like that. so and the memory blocks just continue to roll out. I bet I bet it's a constant thing in your life today, right? Yeah, they continue to come out periodically.

Speaker 1 (01:04:27.266)
But the interesting thing is we had an intensive in 1989, October of 1989, going back to your day.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36.302)
It's sort of hard for me to describe this. Yeah, it's there was lots of emotion, but. Well, let's stop right there. Hang on a second, Bill. That's one thing I want to be clear on. Please don't feel compelled to discuss anything that you're not comfortable with discussing. I'm not in your shoes. I don't know what you went through exactly. I did want to ask you. And let me just get this out of the way now. I did want to ask you one question that you can answer, obviously, however detailed you want.

But one of the things that I'm trying to figure out in my own head is if the greater good is to train our agents and our super soldiers to battle communist threats around the world, and we have to do these mind control experiments to make sure that they're really equipped, that these children in 1958 were helping someone help in the Cold War in 1990, I'm trying to figure out

because there is a sex aspect to this. And again, you don't need to get into your own situation if that's even applicable here, Bill. But what is that all about? Is that just some depraved individuals on the side that see vulnerable children, pedophiles that are just trying to satiate this nasty desire? Or is that part of this

Is there a science to it, for lack of a better word? Well, my therapist in San Antonio, he had been very fortunate to have great therapists. But this stuff started to unfold when he was my therapist and he had been in the army, a therapist in the army treating soldiers for post-traumatic stress syndrome. And essentially that's what I was suffering.

you know, post-traumatic stress. And he said that the Nazis were into, he did some research on Nazi Germany while he was there and what they were doing. And he said the SS, you know, one of the key things that the SS did was they tried to violence to sex.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02.234)
And, you know, I'm pretty sure that this guy that abused me was a former SS officer at Dachau, one of the other camps. And so there was some sort of perverted psychology that developed out of Nazi Germany, you know, and those experiments. I'm again, this is speculation. I have not definitively read it, but it seems to have been common, you know, that

But some, and you know, of course they used a lot of prostitutes, know, adult women, the CIA had lots of prostitutes. know, they had prostitutes walk the streets of San Francisco and New York and lure men into these safe houses where they would dope them up as psychedelics with, of course, out their permission and consent, and then film them and observe them for the next five days. Those were the double mirrored rooms. Exactly. Exactly.

So, I mean, they certainly use prostitutes. some of the, I don't know to what extent this was sanctioned. I don't think what they did to me and how they programmed me was sanctioned by the CIA. These Nazis, well, it's in my book. I was programmed to become president and free Eastern Europe and East Germany from Soviet domination. From the time I was a young kid, I was upset with it.

I was going to go into politics. So I don't think that was anything the CIA was into, but they bought over these ex-Nazis and that obviously would be something they would be obsessed with, you know, wanting to do that. They thought that so that's an aspect in my book. Perhaps this interest came from somewhere else, but sort of makes sense. So as far as the child sex,

Part of it is that and then part of it is, you know, if you're running a group that's completely lawless and unethical, you're going to attract bad actors because they know they can get away with things there. Yeah. You know, they know they have a license to view. So I think it's probably several things that causes this linkage. I don't think.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28.582)
I think if the CIA sanctioned the use of kids and sex things, I think it would be to, you know, entrap people because that's how they use prostitutes. But a lot of this was done on each other in the CIA. You know, some of those guys were into kids, you know, so there's no question. I'm convinced that more than one of the people that were in that program, they were just, you know, into that. And so they were just this was a great way for them to do it.

So I think that's part of it. Okay. But going back to that experiment, of 1989, I can share it. It's just emotional to share it. But if the net effect is all positive, it's it's that our therapist was said something. We went through seven days of intense therapy, all three of us. Before we did it, he said, you know,

I think there's something that hasn't come up.

needs to come up. Well, we went through seven days and it didn't come up and he shared with us what it was he was expecting. And he said, everything I know about the psyche is that

the three of you and my brother even to some extent it's true there, but particularly my sister and I shouldn't be as functional as you've been. I he knew that I was incapable of having a permanent relationship. That was one of the damages done by the program. He knew that, but I had a good job. My sister was successful in her career. so he said, you should have had a...

Speaker 1 (01:11:13.944)
contravening positive influence to survive. So you're really strong people. And I felt hollow, empty. No, we're not really strong people. that night two key things happened. My sister was gonna fly back to New York or Connecticut rather the next day. She flew to LaGuardia and would drive to Connecticut. But...

She said, you you live a lonely lifestyle, you're obsessed with the past, you all you do is, is, is write and pursue the past. You don't have a girlfriend. I'd had a girlfriend for many years, but would not vent. But, but it was more of a, I knew I could never have a, you know, a, a true partnership. And so you just need to get a dating service. need to join a dating service. And I thought not in a thousand years. She wrote down the number of the dating service and she says, you need to call this number. And I said, way to myself.

not in a thousand years. So I take a nap and then I get up and I say, let's go for a ride. I said, what did you feel when our therapist said, you're really strong people? And she said, hollow, empty. It's not true.

Speaker 1 (01:12:30.454)
lasting damage. then we began to figure out, there a positive influence?

Speaker 1 (01:12:40.086)
And then at the exact same instant, both.

Remember the Indian boy.

Speaker 1 (01:12:48.846)
It was really an earth-shaking change. I said out loud, I just felt the cold blanket of pure intellect lift from myself.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05.312)
And when we compare notes, we both essentially remembered his death.

Speaker 1 (01:13:13.186)
And so we fell into the state of deep mourning for someone we knew nothing about. But then the memories began to come back in a tidal way. I mean, just so many things. And now he's in the first book, a character based on him, and he's in there some, but the second book is going to get into a lot more detail. But he was a phenomenal individual. he was protecting you, and his role was to, what, guard your cell? Yeah.

But yeah, 14 year old boy and and and and you witnessed his death there. Yeah, this this Nazi guy, this this the Nazi guy, this just the sex abuse or the really bad one worse than the others. He he forced us to. So, you know.

But the next day I knew.

I could have a relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:14:14.39)
And a month later, I went to the dating service. And a month later, I met my wife. All right. OK, very good. And I definitely want to talk about your life after 1989. And we have a lot of ground to cover from that period. I do want to, and this might be speculation here, but before we get too far away, Kara has two questions here.

I don't know, Bill, if you have this answer. I don't know if anyone has this answer. But is it possible, Kara asks, that this is still happening today and we just don't know about it? Well, after having memories like this, I would say anything is possible. OK. I never would have thought that was possible, you know, the first in world before it started to come back. You know, the and I think and I emphasize, you know, it's just not.

CIA who did this. Many prestigious institutions in the 1950s did this, did experiments like that. Now many of those experiments were more banal, know, not all that bad that they did, you know, like, you know, how to learn a foreign language, you know, they, they, all of the, not all of the MKUltra projects were of this nature. Many of them were, but not all. So, but, I mean, they got, they got a hospital

They got a hospital in Canada, one of the most, the one basis where he, this Cameron, Dr. Cameron at the Mikhail Institute took, and I met, I met the guy. mean, they took this guy and they did all the stuff they said, constant electric shock, constant psychedelic drugs, constant isolation. He was a patient. This guy was president of the American Psychiatric Institute and the world's.

He was extremely prestigious. He goes there because he thinks he's getting the best doctor in the world and this gets done to him. So I met his son and he was a guy very involved in human rights and was putting on a big human rights conference. Actually, Amazon made a documentary about the program and he was the only person he was involved with the group.

Speaker 1 (01:16:39.128)
that was the only ones to successfully sue the CIA and win over N.K. Alter. So he spent seven years in Washington, D.C. working on this. And it turned out what they found out that the what shocked him, he was a Canadian citizen and this was done in Canada. But what really shocked him is that he found out the Canadian government knew about it and was very involved. So this paranoia was all over the world.

free will. the so this applies to certainly, you know, our government, but you know, also other institutions. You know, I think the best thing, I mean, the failure that went on with the CIA is that, you know, there was no oversight. The Senate, it was brought up, should the Senate have oversight over the they had oversight over the CIA's funding.

but not over the CIA. Senator Mike Manstow from Montana tried to pass a law that we should look into what they're up to, but it didn't pass because once again, they're fighting communism. We got to let them be. And I do want to echo, there's a lot of bad actors and I have little doubt that what went on in Russia and China also was along this line. We're supposed to be better than that.

Yeah, and I've met a number of CIA agents and they do a lot of really good things. But when things go secret, you know, and people can't get exposed to, you know, that's when you need to be really careful. But I have not done extensive research on what the CIA is doing today. I'll tell you this, After MKUltra, there was a movie that George Clooney was involved with. He starred in it and I think he directed and produced it.

called Man with Stare at Goats. And it was about the psychic experiments done, you know, subsequent to that, remote viewing and all kinds of strange things. So this movie Man with a Stare at Goats is based on a non-fiction book, although they didn't really spell out that it was true, you know, and it seems just really bizarre, but I met a woman who was in there.

Speaker 1 (01:19:04.694)
And she said she knew everybody in the movie, not the actors, but who they were portraying. She said, absolutely. They wanted to be able to walk through walls, stare at people and make them die. man who stared goats, they're practicing if they can kill the thing just by a stare. So that I to see that movie. Yeah, that came out in the 90s. The Coppola Nightline. All these rumors were flying around that they were doing remote viewing and spying on the Soviet Union.

and you know with these psychics and they they came out onto the Ted Koppel nightline and said it's true we are doing and they actually eventually released the manual and the reason why this is kind of significant with my story is that my sister actually had that talent not when she can do it on command but she would wake up see some assassination in Europe describe it in detail to her husband turn on the TV

and it happened just like she saw.

Speaker 1 (01:20:09.11)
Wow. So this is that other realm of what they were into. And apparently, the method that they released, I want to emphasize on remote viewing that the method they were using were not anything like what MK Alter did. Nothing like that. was...

just things to do with your mind, to put you in a state where you can get into something bigger than you, you know, I haven't done it. My sisters read the manual. So they weren't the kind of human abuse, but they weren't really bizarre. And, you know, who knows, you know, I've known psychics and they

they can do, they, just blown away by what they can do something. You know, I think as I hear you talk about for the last hour plus about what you experienced and what our government is doing, it's a good rule of thumb to apply this to any thought that involves our government. Never overestimate

a government or our government's ability to do evil. more I have conversations like this, the less and less, I mean, don't get me wrong. This is a shocking story. And absolute evil has been perpetrated on innocent, unsuspecting people such as yourself. it's almost, it feels like it's the rule, not the exception. And that is soul crushing.

for a freedom-loving American who believes in the Bill of Rights, believes in the Constitution, believes in our Democratic Republic and our form of government, that this happens in so many areas and it's still jaw-dropping every time you hear one of these stories. Yeah, no, no, you're right. We travel a lot and we hear stories of things that go on in other countries. I love history. This is...

Speaker 1 (01:22:33.162)
Yeah, this has gone on all through history. Sure. Not unique to the United States. Yeah. Worked with something that unfortunately, I mean, look at the Catholic Church. Mm hmm. You know, people, some people would one woman said to me, so how could this have been secret that kids were abused for until it came out? And I said, well, look at the Catholic Church. The abuse that went on with the altar boys for years.

I mean, the movie Spotlight, the great movie, it shows how they got Boston Globe exposed. But it had been going on for decades in many, many towns and was never come to light. you know, you just got to be aware that these things can happen. I mean, the Catholic Church does wonderful things in any institution, corporate, know, nonprofits, know, educational.

you know, it's not immune to human nature. Yeah, and I want to bring up a previous guest several times on this program. Colonel Towner Watkins has spoken to us about Operation Gladio on multiple occasions, and the Catholic Church's involvement with the CIA and the mob. again, heinous stuff that is shocking when you hear it.

But it becomes part of our American story. And it's so sad, and it's so depressing. I will say, this is another interesting point by Kara. I don't know, Kara, you might be onto something. Could that be what's really happening right now at Area 51? Just a thought. Uh-huh. The kind of stuff that you went through. That's, who knows, Kara. Nothing would be shocking, right? Yep, that's possible. But I will kind of mention that in my novel,

My brother, my brother, sister and I remember what appears to have been aliens. Wow. I could have come from a psychedelic experiments because I read the book Breaking Go with a Head. And if you read about what people experienced with psychedelics, they frequently see things like that. You know, they they they they encounter that. So, you know, my book, the way my book is designed is that I don't know with any certainty when we start getting into the paranormal.

Speaker 1 (01:24:58.318)
you what some of this stuff really is. But I do put out several possible explanations for people to choose for themselves. I, we did have common memories of this thing. was, and it was only two occurrences with my sister and I and brother. But yeah, I mean, who knows Area 51. I mean, I believe.

I mean, you're aware of what's going on in the Senate, right? In the US Congress with regard to the unidentified anomalous phenomenon. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So it looks like our elected representatives believe something's going on there. Yeah, right. Right. So let's talk about some of the, I guess, effects on you that you are comfortable getting into. Some are major.

some maybe not as major. find the interesting that you could never pronounce the word scissors. Yeah. You think it's related to what? yeah. No, I mean, I couldn't. I would always say this this is is is I could not pronounce it on my wife. My my my my sister and I were terrified of butchering knives. You know, we just didn't want to even touch them. We had that in common. So when I remembered when I remembered our mother,

with the butcher knife. Of began to cause that phobia to go away. But scissors were involved. How so with the MK Ultra testing? I think it could have been my mother as well. OK. Retaining to cut things off. gosh. OK, I got you. man. So I get you now. And then you mentioned the butcher knives and your mom's attempted murdering you. mean, man, I just I.

I'm so sad for you. And other reason why I think she could have been monkeying with. Yeah, and not necessarily by the quote CIA. think that these Nazis had this little strange cult going on. We have memories of that, that somehow they got my parents sucked into it. You know, bizarre cult that was into sort of dark things. And so that's in the book. But

Speaker 1 (01:27:21.582)
It's hard to know for sure what, I think that some of the stuff they did to us was clearly the CIA agenda, like my brother becoming a super soldier, you know, the psychedelic experience was my sister, again, me freeing Eastern Europe. I don't think they would have done something like that. It wouldn't make any sense, you know, programming a kid for Eastern Europe, you know, as president. So, but it makes perfect sense that the ex-Nazis would.

Right, Yeah, communism out of there. OK, sadly, your brother passed away young. Connected to this. Well, he was a constant smoker. OK, that frequently happens to people in his state. They they need the nicotine. And so they never could figure out what he died of. He just collapsed. But, you know, his his life was a sad one.

Yeah, and I was sort of his, know, you know, I always I had him live with me for a while. And then I would always find homes for him. Yeah, my parents paid paid a lot of money. The government paid money because, you know, he was judged, you know, Medicare because of the condition he was in. So so that was sad. But, you know, and I want to talk about this because I'm

And I will get back to some more questions I have about MKUltra. But let's stay on this line of conversation with your healing. Because I would probably be like your brother. And I'm not at all comparing me to someone who has been tortured throughout their childhood. But what I'm saying is mentally,

If I realized that this had happened to me, I don't think that I would be able to move on. And obviously, therapy, a lot can be said for that. But how have you been able to heal, for lack of a better word? How have you been able to have a successful... You've been married 34 years, is that right? I'm happy for you, honestly.

Speaker 1 (01:29:47.616)
And I just wonder how tough has that been? And explain how you've been able to have, I don't know anything about your life, but for lack of a better word, a normal existence as opposed to your brother. Yeah, well, one thing is he was younger, more vulnerable. The psyche was more damaged than mine and my sister's. Number two, and my sister lived relatively normal life too.

Number two is we were only there for three months. many of these kids that testified, you know, were sucked in. I've talked, some people have reached out to me who believe they were in the MKUltra. And they were in for a period of years. So that's a lot harder. And we also had a very positive, positive influence who some of the

best experience of my life occurred at the same time. places, the states of consciousness he could put us into. He used music and I'll get more into him later, music, dancing, know, cause we were in, he would do that when they were gone during the day, you know, with us. And so, I mean, he was just a very loving and wonderful. that, that helped us, but I was messed up.

and you know I used to have stutters and I was terrified of authority figures. I knew I couldn't have a permanent relationship but I think I healed slowly. You know this stuff came back gradually with me over a period of years so the psyche was better able to integrate the changes that these created. You know it's not

It's not just remembering, it's also emotionally releasing it. And we'll talk later about all these wonderful tools that it had available that helped me release the impact. And I'm not fully done there. It's still trapped in the body, I think. Oh, I bet it's a lifelong thing for you, Oh, yeah, it's been a lifelong thing. I've been doing various forms of therapy all my life and ever since I remembered this.

Speaker 1 (01:32:08.904)
and,

So, I think that was very helpful. And what the therapist teaches, you don't wanna go too fast, let things come out. If you have this kind of severe trauma. I know guys that were veterans from the Vietnam War and had been subjected to extreme trauma. it's better to do it gradually. Yeah, I bet.

What you just alluded to music playing a role in your MK Ultra torture. How so? Yeah, no music was positive aspect. The Indian boy, you we were kept in the basement in a jail cell. So he had affordable record. and he knew how to do what they call trans dancing. Sometimes there's other names for it where your mind goes into a state of consciousness where it connects with the music. And then suddenly when you dance.

You're not making your body move something else.

And if you think of native shamanic traditions in many cultures throughout the world you always see them dancing to drums, know, doing this kind of wild dance to drums. It's essentially a spiritual. It makes you feel really good and it can help. So he did that with us.

Speaker 1 (01:33:48.906)
And when I remembered him, I started doing it. I don't anymore. I'm older now and I don't want to damage my legs and things like that because this can get really wild. But I'll listen to the music and do it in my head. And I know a number of people who do that. And it was interestingly the...

When we remembered him and remember doing the strands dancing, a book was published that same year that said the teachings of an urban shaman. And basically this this this woman took the shamans dancing and then applied it to modern Western music. So she had a lot of eerie coincidences like that occur with it. So, know, that was so.

And also having very good therapists, extremely good therapists. And then my wife has been a very powerful influence. But I think I made it through my mid 30s with a fairly successful career, but never thinking I could really have a family life. And I think things would have gotten worse and worse and worse if these things had never come out. But I will say that you don't have to go through these traumas.

that I'm talking about to be helped by some of these techniques. One of them is called EFT, emotional freedom technique or tapping. It's really big and their major hospital systems are now beginning to bring it on schools to schools. When we get into the healing topic, I'll talk about that. But it can help just lots of people with all kinds of things and not just in the mouth.

Let's, what was that called? That technique EFT you said? EFT yeah, emotional freedom technique. Do you want to talk about some of these techniques that have helped you? Because I would love to go through them with you as this incredible road of healing. Take us through some of the, I guess, techniques that you've used to heal.

Speaker 1 (01:36:13.688)
Sure. Well, first of all, initially I got a lot of really good help from traditional psychotherapy or talk therapy. huh. You know, being engaged in that, that resulted ultimately in the memory of MKUltra. Yeah. We remembered my mother's stuff on her own, but once we got into therapy, the MKUltra memories came up and, and, you know, the breakthrough, remembering the Indian boy occurred the day after our long

seven day intensive the last day. you ever tried to find out, I'm sorry to interrupt you, because please, I want you to go through the list of these healing techniques. This is going to be fascinating. But obviously that 14-year-old Indian boy plays such a large part in your memories and was such an area of comfort for you, I imagine, right, during the experience. Have you ever tried to figure out his identity?

Well, we figured out where I got a lot of confirmation about where he said he came from and the kind of tribe he lived in. and I think I think I want to I don't want to go away from where we're going. But just to say that everything he described about where he came from, which I wondered, how could a four that doesn't really fit with Mexico? And how could a four year old know that? Well, then we found a place just like it.

And everything was exactly how he described it. Wow. So I'll share that story for later. yeah, his personality just began to come back to us even with our brother. And my brother, you know, when I started reading him my novel in the presence of his therapist, he started to get a lot better. And they commented at the halfway out.

But he wasn't ready to go there for so much of his life. He just refused. He was very involved when it first came out, but then he didn't want to go back to it. so he, you know, he saw a therapist, but he wouldn't get into this stuff. but toward the end of his life, he would. And it helped him. The so talk therapy is one of them. did a lot of good. I think the next most significant thing I would bring up

Speaker 1 (01:38:38.826)
is hypnotherapy. And by the way, it's going to be fully set up on my website by the end of the week. But I did write an article with a therapist who had 40 years experience as a therapist and teaches therapists hypnotherapy and EFT and other things. So we wrote a series of articles for a local magazine on healing called Emotional Health Articles.

and we talk about them in there. So people want to learn more about them. It's a high level overview, you know, on several of those techniques that are going to be on my website, but for people that are interested. But there's many of these practitioners, know, hypnotherapists and EFT practitioners all over the place. But in hypnotherapy, what's airy is of course, M. Karyolta used it too. They used hypnosis and I could actually remember being hypnotized. They used hypnosis. That was a significant part of their

technique. But in this healing hypnosis, they guide you to a relaxed state. It's sort of like if you think about if you're driving your car and your thoughts are just someplace and then suddenly you realize you're 30 miles further down the road, you don't even remember driving. That's that kind of state between wake and sleep, which is really the hypnotic state. And then it's very relaxed.

And then the therapist guides you to, would guide me, my therapist would guide me to some of the trauma that occurred. And then I would, she would have me re-experience it. Where it didn't happen, it happened a different way. You know, and then it could also, another thing that can be done with hypnotherapy is EMDR.

It's a high movement desensitization reprocessing is what it stands for. So people just go long, long, hard to remember that. But it's a kidney or a lot of therapists use it. And it has to do with, you either they move your eyes or you feel this little buzz in your fingers going back and forth, back and forth between your left and right. And so it gets the right and the left brain working together better, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:41:02.434)
where you then can process some of these bad experiences and then go to a relaxed state of consciousness, you know, to just sort of let it go. And actually, the gift, PEP, Predator. but I think the one that's been the most significant for me is EFT, Emotional Prejudice.

What is that this stuff you were doing earlier? Yeah, tapping is also frequently known as tapping. There's a big website called Tapping Solutions and they got a lot of stuff on it. And what basically what it is is you as you say, so even though I have this memory of my mother pulling a knife, for example, you know, I deeply and completely accept myself. OK, so it's what they call the karate chop. And then it's based on Chinese

Meridian points. And then you just tap, you know, terrifying memory of the knife, terrifying memory of the knife, terrifying memory of the knife, terrifying memory of the knife, terrifying memory of the knife. You know, when you go through that, and then it goes here and here, I'm going to have on my website, you know, picture of all those points, and all of the internet and all kinds of videos demonstrating them in different ways.

But what it did for me, I'll just give you some examples is, and I'll tell you a little bit about the background of EFT. My boss said, you you can write very well, but you know, in meetings you don't have any confidence. You know, you're hesitant. And so people don't really, you know, have confidence in what you're saying and you need to develop a better delivery. And so I used EFT.

Every time before I had to go into a meeting, because most of them were in conference calls, you know, the company I worked for was spread all over the country. And I did it just regularly before all those meetings. And I noticed I was getting better and better. And then a year later, he just said in meeting, you know, if everybody on my team, Bill gives the best presentation by far.

Speaker 1 (01:43:23.672)
So that's why I say a lot of people can benefit by these things. They don't necessarily have to have gone through what I'm talking about. I see, The number one fear at times has been public speaking. It's just very widespread. And it was a huge fear with me. would break out. Palms would sway. Sure. My voice would stutter. I even froze up one time and couldn't speak.

that sounds like a nightmare, like a literal nightmare. Right. That I've had like on the radio, you know, it's like, you can't talk. Well, that's good. The number two guy in the corporation showed up while I was speaking and I wasn't expecting it. So but the. But yeah, it really helped me overcome that. And it it. So, yeah, my wife and I are developing a technique of doing that in groups, which makes it much more.

So, but there's a lot of other things, Reiki, parts therapy, there's, they say that we inherit trauma from my ancestors. One of the biggest things in therapy now is ancestral healing. And I have scientist friends who I mentioned are medical researchers and I read about this, they had a hard time believing it, but genetics is where...

actually through DNA expression, trauma of your answers is handed down to you. is so, I've been, yes, I've only recently been made aware of that as well. And so you're convinced then now or? Oh, yeah, I'm pretty sure. I mean, if I look at my family, you know, my, my, my, my, both my parents were, you know, my, my, my father was in the US Army and he

interviewed the guys running Dachau. He saw the horrible things. He never wanted to talk about what he did to Dachau. Never. And my mother was in Dresden, Germany, when it was bombed. A firebomb. Wow. At the railroad station. And then, my grandparents were World War I and the American Civil War. You know, so, you know, and you take a lot of families, you're going to find, you

Speaker 1 (01:45:46.574)
descendants from slaves, or people that were in total poverty. Who knows? yeah, I think that's real. And you can use things like EFT to tap on. I think where it becomes apparent, this is where I would say it might be a factor. If you can't think of anything in your life that makes you very uncomfortable about a situation, because you had a really good childhood and

You don't quite understand why these, it could be that. Now in the article we wrote, we give a lot of explanations of what could be going on there because no one knows for certain. And even if it's not that, if you get better, you get better. know, with a lot of these, you know, past life regression is another thing people use. You have to remember past lives and to overcome traumas. wow. In the therapy field.

I've seen it do remarkable things for people. There's a lot of different explanations as to what it really is. It may not really be a past life. It could be just like a dream or it could be, you know, a downright, you know, there's all kinds, you know, there's all kinds of explanations. So what I've tried to do with my book and future books is I don't want to tell people absolutely what's true. I mean, these things that M.K.L. to did, that's true. But when we get more into the paranormal and some of these

know, cycle spiritual healing techniques, you know, there's, they're helpful. And if they're helpful, that's what counts. refresh my memory. Reiki, is that a kind of meditation? What is that? It's really a hands on. You don't touch, you know, you don't touch people's faces, but you put these symbols in your mind, you know, and these sayings and you repeat them. Oh, wow. your hands right over.

And I did Reiki for years. It's very good to help you in a generalized way. But things like hypnotherapy and EFT can be much more specific to an issue. Reiki is, medical studies have showed it's good. mean, things like gratitude. Just every day saying, I'm grateful for this or I'm grateful for that, making that a practice. We have an article about that.

Speaker 1 (01:48:12.686)
It could work really well compared to other methodologies. I to understand that one of the keys to healing and this is where you're to lose me man. The meditation, that's fine. The tap, that's fine. But are you telling me that exercise, am I going to have to exercise to heal? Come on now. Yeah, well, let me put it this way. Up until I...

I remember box, not even after the memory box corner. think one reason why I did as well as I did even before I dealt with this stuff is I did regular exercise. You I went to the gym a lot. I was president of a foundation or involved with one of the largest, the largest regional park in the United States. And we actually commissioned a study that proved statistically that if you let kids go outside in nature,

And nature could be the walking around their neighborhood, you know, where there's trees and houses, or going out into a park, you know.

the anxiety level will be significantly improved. And it definitely proved that to the extent that the hospital, one hospital started using that as a justification for a prescription for the kid is to let them be outside, outdoors. Yeah. We would sponsor, bringing, you know, poor kids into the parks for a week, you know, where they can just, so actually being in nature is a very high, very healing.

experience. 100 % Yeah. And get outside, get some fresh air, get some sunshine. It'll do wonders for your immune system on top of the mental sanity. Okay, we've covered so much today, Bill. Are there areas that maybe we didn't touch on enough that we need to go back and revisit, do you think?

Speaker 1 (01:50:13.294)
Or have you pretty much covered not only your story the CIA MK ultra story and the healing is there any area that you want to go back and revisit before? We wrap this up today,

Speaker 1 (01:50:32.206)
I'm trying to think if there's a broad topic that would be good to get into. The whole paranormal remote viewing, this alien, whatever that is, all that, I don't have any definitive answers, but that is.

part of our experience. There's a lot of different explanations as to what it could be. So I don't know if that's the kinds of things that are of interest. I did. I there was a very prominent back in the 80s, a very prominent who was best known author in the 80s on psychology. And she had this intensive. went to him in the 1990s.

seven day intensive where they, really, my company paid for it. My boss knew what I'd been through and very few other people did, but my boss did. And so he sent me to this thing and you know, she fished everything out of me. know, at the time I didn't know it was called MKUltra, but I described the program and she fished the alien thing.

and you do, you know, shared it with a group and she made an interesting comment. She goes, I've done these attempts of all over the world.

in many locations and wherever severe trauma occurs, know, those things often show up. I don't know what it means. mean, part of it could be disassociation, you know, I don't know if you know what disassociation means, but when you're subjected to extreme trauma, you leave your body. So, yeah, definition. So you're suddenly in a different realm.

Speaker 1 (01:52:36.936)
And, you know, so it's very possible that you see things that you would not say see in your ordinary state. And I think there's possibly a lot of validity in that. I have heard about out of body experiences from multiple people that I trust to that would have no reason to make something like that up. And it's just there's so much that we don't know.

that the human brain is capable of. And sadly, sadly, that segues back into the CIA and MKUltra in their crazy ass experiments. Let me ask you, go ahead, go ahead. There's one other topic I want to hit, but you go ahead and answer your question. Yeah. Well, you continue, you continue, because mine probably will Well, one of the things that is running through my book, and the fourth one is hinted at, not

Some people have figured it out, but it would be definitely very clear in the second book. But this Indian boy who actually did bring us on out-of-body experiences, he knew how to guide us. Wow. Wow. And again, I'll say, you know, maybe the psychedelic drugs, you know, what did it, but, you know, he was a kid that I think was very experienced with these things because his grandmother, who he said was the most powerful shaman in northern Mexico at the time.

taught him a lot of stuff already. So they had all those drugs sitting in the room right next to where our jail cells were. And he could go in there and pluck out whatever he wanted, conceivably. And I think he knew about them. he was very much into the evolution of consciousness. our consciousness is evolving.

And so that's why meditation, you know, and, you know, things, things of that nature, you know, that where you become present, you know, authors like Eckhart Tolle and Adé Chante, they talk about being present and getting connected to, but they use the term awareness, where suddenly you're kind of observing yourself as opposed to being yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:55:05.058)
where you're connected with something greater than yourself.

So there's all kinds of different explanations for that. All of the religions have mystic traditions, all of them, Eastern and Western. When we were in Turkey, we went to see the Sofis dance in the Muslim religion. my wife and I kind of know what it likes to get in, how it feels to be in that state. And then when they did that, I could feel it too.

It's a really pleasant state, very calming, those kinds of things. But it takes some practice. But all of this stuff you really can't put into words. I bet. You can't. I was just going say, I that's the thing. I think we can all agree that the human mind is capable of so much more than what we allow it to partake in.

And if we want to reach these other levels, that is something for the individual to decide. That's not something for a government or anybody else to decide for you against your will without your knowledge. And that is the hideousness of MKUltra and the CIA and these experiments and the Nazis and all of this. People can make those own decisions for themselves.

if they want to achieve that and take their own notes and do their own experiments. And I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who do this that are doing it of their own free will. And that's the difference here. It's government deciding for you that it's just unacceptable. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think Dean Boyd kept it to himself because he knew exactly what they were up to. it and even Stephen Kessner in his book just concludes none of this stuff really worked for national security.

Speaker 1 (01:57:05.838)
Right, okay. So here's my last question before we part today, Bill. And it's been absolutely fascinating from start to finish, man. I'm so grateful for your time and your willingness to share the story. But my last question is when you look at the news today through your very unique lens as an MKUltra survivor,

As you see, whenever you see a story come out, and I won't even color my question here. But when you see a story in the news, through your unique perspective, do you see sometimes an individual looking back at you, a subject of a news story, and go, my gosh, I can just tell that person.

has been through what I've been through. Have you ever had that experience where you have seen someone or something happening in the news where you have said, my gosh, that's me. I mean, I know exactly, I can tell. Yeah, well, the way I would frame it is, and not just people in the news, but people that I meet. And I can't say what I don't like to say with absolute certainty, but I will use the word suspect.

And I would think, I suspect they've been subjected to extreme trauma. Do we know how many people were subjected to MKUltra experiments? thousand. How many? A thousand. A thousand, okay. And I mean, thousands. because, you know, that we know of. But you know, they destroyed all the records of the people involved. All the names of the people that were experimenting the fund. Those were destroyed.

Speaker 1 (01:59:00.77)
But I have, you know, there's certain things you just bought.

Yeah. I bet. Yeah. What it made me was extremely defensive. And it made me extremely paranoid and sort of a loner. I felt threatened by groups and so I could go on and on and on. But there could be other reasons, other things to cause that, of course. But it's a real possibility. Yeah.

it's it's a it's such an intense story. your your life and your experiences and I want everyone you can obviously you can go to Amazon and Barnes and Noble. The name of the book is Memories of MK Ultra also available. Yes through bill Yarborough.com. Well, they have it's going to be that's not it but it's going to be but you can go to bill Yarborough.com and then you know you can get access to all the

So many articles written by the New York Times, the Washington Post, NPR, foreign countries about MKUltra and mind control in general. They're not all just MKUltra. then you can also learn more about my novel. One thing about my novel is the reason why I wrote it as a novel is because I can't be sure of all the things that happened, as I mentioned. But I try

I didn't want it to be a gross out thing, you know. And so the novel, should be viewed sort of as a, it's sort of, it's been called many things. It's been called an historical novel. It's been called a psychological thriller. You know, it's been called a coming of age story, you know. So it's sort of a combination of a number of things. And so it's framed with the,

Speaker 1 (02:01:03.272)
One storyline is from the point of view of the guy running the Gateway School, the former Nazi from Germany. He's not, he wasn't in the SS. He's not as bad as the SS guy. From his point of view, running this program during the summer of 58 and his interactions with his superiors and his interaction with his subjects and the other people that work with him. So that people get a very clear idea of what's happening, what happened to these kids.

you know, in the summer of 1958. The other story is these kids starting off when they're nabbed, you know, in the museum, but then when they're out of the program but don't remember being in it, and it traces them through elementary school, junior high, leave out high school, and then to college, and then to adults all the way up until, you know, when they remember, and then...

onward as they start healing. So the reader knows what goes on, but the characters don't. And one of the goals there is to give people an understanding of the subconscious or unconscious mind, how it drives behavior, you know, and it may not be a memory you repressed, but it could be a memory you haven't recovered from. And it's still driving your behavior.

It's still making you do things until you, you know, using various different techniques of your own choosing, whatever you're most comfortable with and getting if you choose a therapist, getting one you trust. If you have a severe issue, you should, you know, get a therapist. I always recommend that, you know, severe issues, you need help. But like I did. you know, and so.

But I do want people, know, some people pick up on that. Yeah, they can see how the unconscious mind is just driving these kids. Yeah. And they don't know it. And these techniques, are they at the website, billyarborough.com? Yeah, it's going to be, you know, right now. Work in progress. By the end of the week, the emotional health articles will be, there's six of them. You know, there's a lot of other techniques. So just to give you a flavor of the different kinds of therapies.

Speaker 1 (02:03:26.944)
available. EFT, hypnotherapy, kind of stuff, past life regression, gratitude.

Speaker 1 (02:03:44.174)
The title of the book, Memories of MK Ultra. When is book two going to be released? Any date yet? Not yet. It's going to be a trilogy, right, when it's all said and done? Yes. All right. OK, cool. Very cool. Thank you. Man, absolutely. This has been absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much. Bill Yarborough. And the name of the book again is Memories of MK Ultra.

available at Amazon and Barnes and Noble and other locations. It's been intense, man. And I appreciate you opening up and sharing your story with us, And I hope to talk to you again at some point, for sure. Yeah, we'd love to do that. And thank you so much for your perceptive questions. That was great. And it's available online in those places, many bookstores, actually. Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah, I'm so tactile. So but yeah, you're right. in this bookstore yet, at least. Understood. Thank you so much.

Absolutely. Thank you, Bill. And thanks to all of you for tuning in today. Please be sure to like, subscribe, share. This is a fascinating discussion that I hope that you will share with people that need to hear the story. We'll see you here tomorrow at 3 p.m. Eastern for the Friday live stream. Going to be a full house with Brad, Rebecca, and Kelly. And I hope you'll be a part of that as well. Thank you so much for making time. Thank you.