Keith (00:01.998)
Welcome to this edition of At the Mic. I am your host, Keith Malinak. And, boy, have I been looking forward to today's conversation. Before I go any further, though, I do want you to know that at 8 o'clock Eastern tonight, YouTube and Rumble, Wes will get this show posted for you. The live chat will be available if you'd like to participate there. Spotify, iTunes, thank you, Wes, for making all of that happen. And of course, thank you to Gabby.

who created the Instagram page for At The Mic Show. Go and check that out. She is constantly putting stuff up there. And I'm so grateful for both her and Wes. And thank you for making time, as always. We do this every Thursday and Friday at 3 PM Eastern here on X Live. And I appreciate you making time. coming up, well, if you missed last week, go back and watch the AI conversation. Grok is trying to get out of the cage. Great conversation there.

That's available pinned to the top. All of the shows that we've done pinned to the top here of my Twitter page at Keith Malinak and a week from today, Steve Day. So be my guest as we talk about the resurrection of Christ just ahead of Easter. Deep dive on that. And then what? my goodness. I'm going to do a tag team with Blaze reporter, Steve Baker and FBI whistleblower Steve Friend.

That's coming up on the 24th. We're going to see what exactly is going on there at the old Cash Patel Dan Bongino FBI. Are we getting the results we want? E. We'll check in with those two guys. And then a Barfleet episode coming up on May 1st, where Kelly Smith will join Brad Staggs and myself. She's got a lot of conspiracies we need to go over. And Brad, I'm going to go ahead and put you up here because when I told you I was doing this, Witness to Roswell, this book, you wanted in. And so I was like, oh, well, then you hang out with us right here.

for the Roswell show, which I'm telling you, y'all, I, I have to say this book sat on my shelf for years and I'm ashamed to admit that. And I'm pissed at myself for that. This book is easily in one of my top five books of all time. And you're talking to a guy who, before I read this, I could have gone either way on aliens and UFOs. I was on the fence. You read this book and

Keith (02:25.014)
I don't think there's any chance that you're not convinced that it's absolutely real and the cover up is absolutely real and

maddening. is. It's the way they got the way those people were treated, which I wasn't aware of until I'd read Witness to Roswell is disgusting.

It is the epitome of a cover up of the highest level. tyranny. It sure is, Brad. And we're going to talk about that here. And honestly, this book is more about the cover up than the event itself. The 1947 crash in Roswell, New Mexico, a UFO, if you're not familiar with the story. Well, I'm going to introduce the guy to tell it to you.

because, and we're gonna take our time. I'm so grateful for Don Schmidt. You gotta read this book, y'all, Witness to Roswell. And I'm so grateful, Don, that I told you before we started, I said, there is so much that we have to discuss with your book. And again, my apologies for not reading it sooner. My eyes are so open to what happened and what happened after that.

And I'm grateful that you said that if we don't cover everything, we'll have you on for a part two if we need it. But Don Schmidt, thanks so much for not only making time today, but for, and the reason this book is so good, man, is that it's so thorough. The sources, over 600 first and second hand witnesses. And you even go into individuals that, here's a reason, wait, maybe we don't trust this particular witness. And I appreciate you just

Keith (04:09.336)
hovering it from all angles. People, check this book out. Don, thanks for joining us here on G-

I'm gonna whup one upsmanship. This is the 75th anniversary edition.

See, mine's only the 60th.

I have the new one, I Yeah, Big Brad has it. There we go. We added more witnesses, we added new chapters, we added post scripts, so it's even thicker than the one you have, Keith. So you're gonna have to come up the speed. Yeah, just kidding, no kidding. Okay.

Thank you, Renee Morton.

Keith (04:46.542)
So I guess let's let's go to July 1st 2nd 1947 in New Mexico and and I think and I just want to just I want to say this at the onset because I had a misconception I didn't have a lot of knowledge about Roswell and I'm so disgusted with myself not only for the book sitting on the shelf for years But also for having driven through Roswell multiple times in my life and just been like, cool the alien place and and I promise you

I will be in your neck of the woods in August, and I will be stopping by that museum and spending a heck of a lot of time. But one thing I want to mention is that it's multiple crash sites. And I know you'll explain this, but it's spread over quite a distance there. It's not just one impacted place, but I don't know where you want to begin. But just maybe start with that night, and we'll go from there.

Sure, we'll set it up because one of the things that especially when I lecture on college campus, I will always pose the question specifically if the faculty is present. I'll ask now where was the first atomic bomb detonated? And you will be surprised how many of the learned professors. Well, of course, Japan. No. How about New Mexico? How about just two hours west of Roswell, New Mexico in 1945?

And then you had ongoing atomic research of Los Alamos. You had all the testing of the captured German B-2 rockets, the White Sands Proving Grounds. And then at Roswell itself, just south of town, you had the Roswell Army Airfield, headquarters of the 509th Bomb Wing, the first atomic bomb squadron in the world. They were the elite within the military at that time, where they hand selected the best officers, best pilots.

crew, doctors, nurses, they all were stationed there at the time of the incident. And according to Project Blue Book, which was the most famous of the three official Air Force investigations of the phenomenon, there were more UFO sightings in New Mexico than anywhere else in the country at that time. So it was though someone else was very interested in our military potential. And what better place?

Speaker 3 (07:10.092)
So it was late evening of July 2nd, 1947, severe lightning storm in the high desert of Lincoln County. And ranchers would describe what sounded like an explosion that they heard between the thunderclaps. So the next morning, a ranch foreman by the name of W.W. Brazzo would discover a debris field of wreckage that not only extended for almost a mile,

But it was the strangest, most exotic material that neither he or the ranchers hired hands, even a state police officer could identify. So that Sunday, July 6th, he makes the 75 mile drive into Roswell to report this. But he doesn't go to the military. He goes to the courthouse and it's the sheriff, George Wilcox, who then notifies the base.

Well, it was the very head of intelligence, Major Jesse Marcel, who would retrieve a box of the wreckage that Brazzo had brought into town. He takes it back and he reports directly to the very base commander, Colonel William Blanchard. Now, it's a Fourth of July holiday weekend. Most of the base personnel are home on leave with their families. Skies are clear.

Nothing is being tested. Nothing is reported missing. All is quiet. So what does this represent? And the fact that the very head of intelligence is now alerting the base commander. So we're seeing how this is continuously escalating in importance. Now it's up to the very base commander, the first atomic bomb base in the world. So Blanchard

He dispatches, he just doesn't send out a couple of grunts, a couple of enlisted men, the humor of the rancher, just check it out. No, he sends out the head of Marcel and the head of counterintelligence, Captain Sheridan Cabot, in the event it's something foreign, that would be his specialty. So they follow Brazzo to go and investigate this crash. The next day, the two officers would fill up

Speaker 3 (09:33.806)
Two entire vehicles with this wreckage. Mind you, there's still plenty out there. They would contain as much of the wreckage as they still could. They would return back to the base. They'd arrive first thing Tuesday morning, July 8th. At noon, Tuesday, July 8th. That is when the Roswell Army Airfield put out that famous press release where they actually announced they captured

a flying saucer. In other words, the first atomic bomb squadron in the world actually claims we got one.

Right, OK. And of course, we'll get into how the government story changed multiple times. But a lot has happened between July 2 and July 8. I would like to point out that, correct me if I'm wrong, the military was on high alert because in the month leading up to the Roswell incident, there were reports of UFOs flying in the area. And so they were on high alert to begin with. And then Brazel,

Absolutely.

Keith (10:40.28)
When he did find that debris, he took it to numerous individuals in and around the town that have described the properties of this material. And Brad, I know that you and I were talking before we got started, the fireman's daughter, Frankie.

Frankie Rowe, Frankie Rowe, yes.

I mean, she talks about how it's like you couldn't feel it in your hand when you would crinkle it up on the table. It was like water. And then she, of course, this goes back to the whole cover up thing, the intimidation of the people in Roswell and the other little town there nearby. Corona. It's I mean, our government has been intimidating witnesses.

the thrill, right.

Keith (11:31.778)
and trying to control the narrative for so long.

80 years, almost 80 years.

That is what lends credence to forget if it's aliens, forget whatever. The fact that the higher this went, the more tight lipped people became and then everything collapsed down on all of the witnesses. It tells you.

Within hours, within hours. And as I had mentioned, as I described that it had already risen to the level of the base commander at Roswell, Colonel William Blanchard. And then what does he do after Marcel and Cabot go out to investigate? He contacts his boss, who is General Roger Raimi, the head of the Eighth Air Force, headquartered at Carswell.

Army Airfield in Fort Worth, Texas. Well, Ramey is like so many of the other officers. He's home on leave. He's in Denton, Texas for a plane dedication and with his family. So it was his chief of staff, Colonel Thomas DeBose, who takes the call from Blanchard. And who does DeBose call up? He immediately contacts the Pentagon.

Speaker 3 (12:52.36)
in Washington. Again, these are the highest level officers and again, it's now in Washington. And it would be within minutes that the Deputy Director of Strategic Air Command, General Clements McMullen calls up DeBose in Fort Worth and orders him to immediately contact Blanchard in Roswell.

and have some of that wreckage immediately sent to Washington. Which they then did. The point is Washington already has debris in hand by late evening July 6th. Sunday July 6th. When does the press release go out? Tuesday July 8th. So the skeptics, this was just an overreaction, knee-jerk reaction on the

part of the personal Roswell. No, no, no, no, no. This was two days later and Washington was already calling the shots. That's the whole point. I can't emphasize that enough that this wasn't just a couple of incompetence, you know, that we're dealing with this and Roswell. No, no, no. It was all the way to the Pentagon.

Yeah, Brad, do you have a question?

And I hate to interrupt but I wanted to get before we get too far from the starting point I wanted to ask you I heard somebody that was on Rogan's podcast who said if you are going to come You know, however many light years from whatever part of the galaxy the universe whatever it is You've got that ability and lightning takes your ship down

Keith (14:32.494)
Right.

and I want to believe I really do but how does a ship like that in your opinion how is it disabled by lightning surely that they assuming it's extraterrestrial they would have known that lightning is a phenomenon here on earth I would imagine throughout the universe because it's electricity what's your take on that what

Okay, two things, Brad. And anyone familiar as far as especially the monsoons during July and August throughout the Southwest, especially off of the Capitan Mountains, the southern tip of the Rockies, how you can have a gorgeous, bright, blue sky, sunny day, and then by the afternoon, the storm clouds build up off the mountain and they just rush in through the high desert.

The lightning actually strikes the ground. So much for this being high desert. And the point being that we ourselves have been almost trapped out there at times that the storms would come up so quickly that it was all we could do to hightail, get out of there as quickly as we could while the lightning is hitting the ground a quarter mile away from us on both sides. So that is one possibility. And the only reason

that it's been suggested that the lightning may have been a factor is the fact that we have been able to document through the Stallion Network Weather Service that there was indeed a severe lightning storm that did develop during that window, during that half hour. That we've been able to determine that the crash took place. The other thing which we have not looked into, and I had a former radar tech

Speaker 3 (16:21.624)
from the CIA, who I did a show with a number of years ago. And he suggested, Don, what you need to look into is radar. And the fact that radar was in its infancy at that time. And White Sands, just a couple hours to the southwest of Corona, the high desert of Lincoln County, had the most sophisticated radar system in the world probably at that time because of

all the rocket testing that they could track both incoming as well as departing aircraft. Everyone else was only able to track incoming. Again, was radar was just getting started. There was radar at White Sands. There was a radar system at Roswell. There was also one an hour to the northeast at Cannon Airfield. There was one up at Kirkland Airfield in Albuquerque.

North of White Sands, there was a tracking radar system at just west of Socorro and then just 90 miles to the northwest of Roswell in Vaughan, which we never knew about. There was also another radar system. Now, these radar lobes, which are circular, where did they all intersect? Lincoln County.

Lincoln, so

being that that radar could have affected somehow their guidance system, their navigational system.

Speaker 3 (17:56.714)
precisely. And the fact that I have through the years talked to numerous pilots who talked about during the 1940s, post World War II, that they would intentionally avoid that area because they would throw off their instruments. Something was jamming as far as their symptoms. And the thought being that because there were no regulations on the frequencies at that time.

that there may have been just a tremendous amount of energy as this all intersected. And it may have created, you know, the next thing to, you know, just your hair standing on and just for walking through the area. And so what it's been proposed is that we would essentially get information as to what the frequencies were from all those radar systems.

back at that time and then take that into a lab situation and see what effect it would have. And so it's an experiment that we're looking into conducting at some point, but we first need to get the records. And so that may have been a major factor that we never, I used to always, radar brought it down, radar brought it down. And it was like the type of thing, well, how does radar bring down anything for that matter?

So before we get any deeper into the cover up, let's make sure that we do justice to the kind of debris that was found, some of the memory metal qualities, the markings, almost hieroglyphics. And so I want you to talk about that. then we need to talk about the bodies of the creatures. take the please.

so casually.

Keith (19:54.048)
The bodies of the creatures. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's so many witnesses. I mean, I'm telling you, this is such a well-done book because it's so thorough. You got to read this book.

It was the number one selling UFO book in the world for two and a half years.

Yeah, right. That's the thing. you're gonna read one book, digest one source, this is so encompassing. And I promise you guys, Don hasn't paid me nor will he be paying me a cent for this. I am just such a fan of this book that I wanna make sure that people read this thing.

Well, what's interesting is that it was the last show, the last weekend that Art Bell officially did as far as Coast to Coast. Wow. And my partner, Tom Carey, was on the second last show. And they talked about Witness to Roswell. And Art Bell actually stated the same thing. He was on the fence. that witness

to Roswell was the book that finally convinced him that there could be no alternative explanation, that we have to accept what all these witnesses to their very death beds stated to be the truth.

Keith (21:15.488)
And first of all, that makes me feel so great. I so respect Art and I miss him on the airwaves. we haven't even gotten to after, long after, we haven't even gotten to Ohio in this part of the story. So anyway, start with the debris here.

There were basically five types of debris recovered at three different sites, but identical as far as from each location. And the one, the primary material was the metal-like, plastic-like. They couldn't even ascertain whether it was metal or not because it was, again, that unusual.

And so they would describe it as metal-like, practically weightless in your hands, paper thin. engineers at the base, for example, after they had attempted, you know, cutting it, burning it, they even described where they attempted to shoot fire bullets through it. And they would just listen as the rounds would ricochet off this material. So there were engineers at the base.

took a 16 pound sledgehammer. Now I always will suggest to people next time you're at a Home Depot, a hardware store, pick up a 16 pound hammer. It will go through your car like tissue paper. And yet the engineers described that no matter how often or how hard they would strike the wreckage, not even a scratch. Nothing.

And so then you mentioned the symbols. There were I beams, like as thick as your pinky, but they had hieroglyphic, the same material, but they had hieroglyphic and hues of purple and pink of these symbols that ran the length of each piece of each I beam, never deciphered, never decoded. And we have multiple witnesses who have sketched the identical symbols.

Speaker 3 (23:35.278)
that they witnessed on these structures. There were silken strands of material like microfilament fishing line, and you could hold a light up the one end and the light would emit. It would come out the opposing the opposite end. Well, what are they describing? Fiber optics. Fiber optics wouldn't be developed for another 23 years. And then.

We still call it our holy grail. It's what we're still searching for because it will prove this overnight. And that's what you mentioned, like with Frankie Rowe.

Yeah, yeah, and the- Yeah, I was just gonna say that I just love the way the book is written. There's a story about how one of the members of the military was able to, he saw like a, what was it, a piece fell off a train or something, and he went back at night and he just kinda picked it up. First during the day, he hit it by standing on it, and then came back. That's where I wanna go next.

He gave it to his kid.

How in the hell if you go through that trouble to get that and then your kid puts it in his magic show?

Speaker 3 (24:49.612)
Mm-hmm. Just imagine that. Just imagine.

And it vanishes because he leaves it in a storage shed. mean, this kind of stuff happens time and time again in history where it's like you have this priceless thing and you treat it like that.

Well, the thing is, we even tracked down one of the MPs who was part of that unit that went from the B-29 hangar P-3, then came across a tar mag, exited through the East Gate, and then loaded these crates into that freight car.

And then we know where that freight car went. even have, you know, we can tell you exactly where it went and where some of that wreckage went before it arrived at Wright Field. So that we've been able to put together as far as that trail of evidence just for that one incident. But the gentleman's name was Wood. And he was the one, he was worked for the civil service and he observed the loading under heavy guard.

of these wooden crates into the back of this freight car and he sees a piece drop to the ground, you know, unobserved by the other men present. And that's as you described as he signed off the release as far as the car, the freight car, and they proceeded to go back onto the base and he goes over and that piece is still there and he steps it down under the ground.

Speaker 3 (26:26.875)
and comes back later that night and gets his bearings and he tries to, you know, he's feeling around in the dark and there it still is.

And that's the stuff that acts like mercury, right? That's the...

or quick silver as Frankie Rowe described it, that it would flow like water.

but they flatten back out when you dump it on a table.

Memory material, correct.

Keith (26:48.28)
So, yeah, and I just, it's fascinating.

You know, let me quickly tell you, you know where that crate car went? It went to the Timken Corporation in Ohio. And Timken had major contracts with the military. In fact, not only as far as metals, but specifically ball bearings for our army tanks.

mean, the patents that followed up after the material was shipped just down the train track from their building is just, I mean, that is,

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 (27:29.866)
And Timken happens to have one of the hottest blast furnaces in the world at that time. So they're good. It makes perfect sense. Let's see if a blast furnace could touch this stuff. So then we even have witnesses to that effect who worked at Timken. So what are the chances this all would come together like that? And that's what, again, I can't emphasize enough, gentlemen, that they're either all reading from the same script or they're describing exactly what.

They personally.

So but all of this clamped down because we talked about Frankie being intimidated and so many witnesses were to one degree or another. All of this for what became the official story and that is a weather balloon.

balloon with a radar reflector kind of the flimsiest foil that any five-year-old child would have identified. am I pleased? And the amazing thing, gentlemen, is that to this day, even though they then switched it to a top secret Russian spy balloon project called Project Mogul, but it's the same balloon, the same identical materials.

And where were they launching these balloons on a daily basis in conjunction with their bomb drop exercises? Roswell. The personnel at Roswell were more familiar with these balloons than anyone. Right. And that's why it worked out perfect that they switched the real material for the balloons in Roswell. We, can even tell you who loaded up the brown paper wrap packages

Speaker 3 (29:15.924)
into the bomb bay of the B-29 bomber called Dave's Dream, which Marcel, head of intelligence, happened to be on. And he had boxes of the actual wreckage with him up in the flight cabin. The original destination was Wright Field. That's where Marcel thought they were going. And once they were airborne, we've had a change in flight. We're going over to Fort Worth.

General Ramey wants to see the wreckage. Well, and as we know the story, Marcel would walk into the trap. He would become the patsy. He would be ordered to pose with the substituted balloon. And what's interesting there too, he is sworn to secrecy after the balloon explanation. Now I defy anyone with any military background or anyone who was out of clearance working for the government. Why would they swear you the secrecy about a coverup?

Unless it was indeed a cover-up. In other words, it's just been explained away and then he's told never to say another word about this because we're afraid you may still tell the truth.

ask your question and then I have one as well.

Somebody in the chat just said it's because the thing that crashed in Roswell was a failed US military vehicle. A lot of people believe that. why was it not a failed US military vehicle that crashed?

Speaker 3 (30:42.766)
Well, first of all, I would challenge the caller present to me another example in human history that now after almost 80 years that we developed something in 1947 that was so top secret, it is still top secret today. And then for as much time as we have spent on Roswell investigating every alternative explanation, nothing comes close to matching the

materials that I described a few moments ago, nothing, even by today's standards. Right. And then anytime someone suggests that this was something top secret that we were experimenting with, either of German technology or Russian technology, they've never been out to the site. It's wide open, high desert. I have flown over the area often.

in small planes and in helicopters. Totally unobscured. One thing becomes quite evident that once you are airborne, you can see 450 miles. If it was something that we were experimenting with that had gone awry, had gone off course, that we were looking to find it, aerial reconnaissance, what have you, we would have found it within hours.

and the military would have been looking for it long before anybody in town knew or what happened.

Let's go by the timeline. The crash happens late evening. First of all, who in God's name is experimenting with anything after dark, especially back then? No one. For the very reason that I just described, you want to make sure that you can track it and locate it if you need to, within daylight hours. So this happens at 11, between 11, 1130 in the evening.

Speaker 3 (32:43.334)
And the rancher doesn't discover it till the next morning. He doesn't report it for three more days. Yeah. Till the sixth. No one is still looking for it. then the two intelligence officers do not arrive until Monday, the seventh. It's the first time anyone is looking for anything. And the point being, if we are not looking for anything.

It's easy to surmise that we weren't missing anything. Right. And if it wasn't ours, then whose was it?

And the escalation, of course, with the cover up after that. I want you to tell us what happened with the radio station there in town with the interview that was recorded and was going to air. Explain what happened there.

Well, Brazel, he returns back to his ranch chores while Marcel and Cavett are cleaning up and clearing up and loading up as much of the records as they can. And because Brazel, the day before, while at the sheriff's office, they would receive a phone call from radio reporter Frank Joyce from station KGFL. And Joyce was

hoping just to get some last minute scuttle for his next newscast. And the sheriff says to him, I think there's somebody here you might want to talk to. And Joyce doesn't get the name, but the gentleman is quite agitated. He's angry. Who's going to clean up all that wreckage? I had to drive the sheep.

Keith (34:11.307)
Ha ha ha!

Speaker 3 (34:34.142)
over two miles around the brief field just to get to the water station.

The sheep would not go near the wreckage,

There again, what type of experiment that I mean there please show me a debris field of a balloon or anything of that that creates a debris field almost a mile long and then creates another location where there are bodies recovered and then creates another location where there's a pod a capsule where there are more bodies recovered. So again, please give me another

alternative explanation that would fit all of that before we just jump to conclusions that it had to be government because I want to believe that.

Yeah, no, and he says I can dig that explanation. The description of, and this is the first time I'd heard it described this way, that because of the two debris fields were caused because there was an outer shell of some sort and then an inner craft of some

Speaker 3 (35:37.762)
Mid-air explosion, mid-air explosion, right.

Blew the outer shell off and the pod or whatever it was inside continued on down the road for how many months?

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 (35:49.102)
27 miles or impacting 35 miles north of Roswell.

But that's an amazing distance for it. we wouldn't. There was nothing at that time anyway that even comes close to.

And Brad, you make the excellent point that we have to do our homework. We have to realize both jet and rocket propulsion technologies were in their infancy at that time. The skies were generally pristine. They were virgin. I mean, even the nearest rocket launch of an experimental V2 from Nazi Germany was on July 3rd, an attempted

on July 3rd and there was a flash fire on the launch pad. Men were severely burned and the launch was scrubbed and that was the extent of it. Nothing until again the end of the month. So if we were experimenting with anything, please, you know, there has to be some, you know, documentation somewhere, especially after 80 years of what that was.

That's the thing. Where's the documentation? is no. So Brazel gets interviewed at the radio station. But before it can air the next day, what happens to that radio station?

Speaker 3 (37:09.422)
Well, so Brazos discussion with Frank Joyce becomes more more somber to the point. It becomes quite frightened to the point that he starts talking about it was horrible. It was just horrible. And Joyce is pressing him. What was horrible? What are you talking about? It was horrible. And the the voice on the other line finally says it was the stench.

You would not believe the smell. And Joyce immediately fires back. are you talking there were remains? There were bodies involved? And that's when Joyce suggests, well, you know, they're launching those rockets over at White Sands. Maybe they put a monkey up in one of those those rockets to which the voice on the other end fires back. They weren't any damn monkeys. They weren't human. So. It's.

That next day. Brasel has led them out to the debris field. And who should arrive on the ranch wanting to take him back to Roswell? But a number of the news people from KGFL or Joyce works. And they take him back in the Roswell and they hide him out at the station managers home. That was Walt Whitmore senior.

And there they keep him overnight. They do a wire recording where according to Jud Roberts, who was also there for the interview, he talked extensively about the bodies. He described the bodies that he had witnessed. So the next morning they're going to race Brazzo to the radio station to break the whole story.

and who should be there and grab him before they could do anything online over the air but the military. They kidnap a civilian. Yep. They I mean and the military unless martial law be declared the military has zero authority over civilians. They now know there again why are they kidnapping civilians over

Speaker 3 (39:37.098)
a failed experiment that whether they saw it or not, why do they need to actually kidnap civilians?

over a weather balloon.

And over anything over anything and not just for the afternoon, but for the next five days. Unconceptive, they kept him at what was called the guest house. It still existed out at the base till just about 10 years ago. We have a lot of pictures that we took. I was fenced off. It was near the front gate, but nonetheless, they called it the guest house. They kept razzle there for five days. They deprived him of food.

It's.

Speaker 3 (40:19.306)
of water, they would ask him the same questions over and over again. They kept him up all night. And then as Brazzo would describe later, the indignity, the indignity he kept saying that they subjected him to a full army physical, where they also conducted a full body cavity search on him. Come on, people, please.

You know, you're insulting the memory of these people to suggest, it was a balloon. It was something we would expect. But again, just imagine they don't they don't afford him due process. He's not allowed to call his boss and let him know. I'm not at the ranch. You might want to get somebody out there to tend to the livestock, especially the horses who are penned up. And they don't allow me to even call his own wife to let her know where he is.

This is our United States military, our government back then, over a weather balloon. That's what I learned.

so much from your book too is the fact how horribly these people were treated. I that about Matt Grasel that just and it had to have obviously did piss him off but he at one point wasn't he who said I can't believe this is happening in the United States?

Yes.

Speaker 3 (41:39.192)
Right, right, right. How, I mean, he would say I'm a GD American citizen. How in this be happening?

Yeah, and that's the thing. You could see why he would become so bitter and quiet and angry and

Never got over it.

Yeah, so many cases pointed out in the book of this kind of treatment of Americans in this country. That's the thing about Roswell that I've always just known, OK, there was a crash. was a cover up. Look, it's a weather balloon. And then that's it.

End of story. Right.

Keith (42:24.992)
When you read this book and you read, that's the thing that's so powerful, Don, about your book is that these are individual stories. These are Americans telling one by one what they witnessed or what they heard from an immediate family member or or or what they experienced. And you can't walk away from this book without going, holy shit, I was totally wrong. I had no idea anything about Roswell. And and so

It's just, it's...

Well, let's go back to the radio station.

huh, right, right, that's another case of intimidation.

Again, you talk about total violation of First Amendment. So the radio station, they've lost Brazel. They have no idea where he is. They have the story, but they wanted the exclusive. They wanted to break this. So what happens? And again, it's the radio station. It's Judd Roberts, KGFL. All at once, they get a phone call from a TJ Slowey who was with the FCC.

Speaker 3 (43:31.564)
the Federal Communications Commission in Washington, threatening that if they broadcast the story, they will lose their license within 24 hours. Can you imagine what's happening today?

When I read that, the first thing I thought of, holy crap, this is social media during COVID. This is any manner of government overreach. I can just see the contemporary version of this. But yeah, it's.

So we had skeptics. Well, that's a story. Okay, that's a story. Well, we confirmed that TJ Sloey was the vice president of the FCC at that time. So it was the vice president of the FCC that actually, you know, made that call. And then the follow-up call came from Senator Asparas Dennis Hatch, who told the radio station, it's out of my hands. I can't help you.

You better do as you're told. So he too was read the riot act. He too was told you better do as you're told.

And so the radio station is then ransacked by the personnel at the base. Anything that made any mention of that press release or anything else pertaining to the incident was confiscated. The wire recording from the night before that they did with Brazzo was confiscated. All again, violations of the First Amendment all over this weather balloon. And then

Speaker 3 (45:14.488)
Frank Joyce would get a phone call from the Pentagon, from a Colonel. We identified him and we confirmed he too was at the Pentagon. And he said, you better damn well do as we tell you. Otherwise you will never work within the press again. And Joyce fired back, you can go to hell because you can't order me what to do. And the Colonel fired back.

Go ahead, see what I can do. And then Joyce would be picked up the next day and taken out into the desert and he would effectively be silenced. That he would be told, you better never bring this up again.

I remember a quote, the desert's a big place.

and they'll never dig up your bones.

Go ahead, Brad.

Brad (46:10.158)
was gonna say, did they end up, did I hear it correctly, did they commit Frank Joyce to a mental hospital?

Yes, thank you, Brad. Yes, that's right. how, you know, well, and let me tie that in with somebody else in a moment. But yes, you talk about how they with civilians were effectively silencing them, ruining them, their careers, their professional lives for life. And back then you get placed in a mental hospital. so Joyce, he's placed in a mental hospital.

down in Houston and he's kept there for a full year. Was never treated. He talked about how he'd even be in the hallway and all he would be told is, Joy, Mr. Joyce, just, you know, just behave yourselves and you'll be home in a year. And so they essentially hit him out during all that time. But the other person who they silenced with a similar threat and for any one again,

please do your homework. It's one thing to be threatened with imprisonment, but back then when they were doing lobotomies, they were doing electric shock. There was nothing more fearful than being threatened with an insane asylum. And how did they finally get Matt Brazel, the rancher to capitulate, to rescind, to backtrack, to retract the whole story? Mr. Brazel.

you're going to spend the rest of your life in insane asylum and then your family will be joining you. Well, that would have gotten anyone's attention back then. And that's what they did. And that's why after five days when they were escorting him through town and they took them to the radio station and Frank Joyce is thinking, my God, I'm going to now talk to the very man who started all this and he's going to be on the air and

Speaker 3 (48:14.926)
damn, Neil, the authorities in Washington, you know, I'm going to get it from the horse's mouth. And Brazzo is put on the air and Joyce is thinking we're going to break the story of a lifetime. And Mac Brazzo tells the whole balloon story and how he's so sorry that everyone overreacted to the incident. He never meant to get everyone all excited about this. And Joyce takes him off. Mike?

They go out into the lobby and that's when Joyce sees two MPs standing outside the door and then he realizes what's going on. And then he says to back Brazzell, what about the little green men? And that's when Brazzell turns back before he exits and says, but they weren't green.

Mmm.

In modern terms, Mack Brazel would be Rip from Yellowstone.

Yes, exactly. In every way.

Keith (49:22.646)
Ever... Ranch Foreman?

That's the kind of character that he would be because that's where you had to be if you're gonna be a ranch the ranch for me you had to be tough and These guys I mean they were they were tough. He did not own the ranch. It was owned by the I can't remember their name of brothers, right?

Well, his son, Bill Jr. And then there was also another, there were two other sons that was Paul and Vernon who were also involved.

So.

Brad (49:55.67)
At the ranch that Brazel worked? OK. Because they, in all of the, again, all of the years, I never really knew about those, who those people were, their names didn't generally pop up. But it was theorized that they were even paid to shut up, to not ever talk about this again. Correct?

Yes.

Speaker 3 (50:17.89)
Well, Bill Jr., who he and his wife Shirley lived up in Albuquerque at that time. And all of a sudden, they're looking at the Albuquerque Journal and there's a picture of Mac in the upper right hand corner in his cowboy hat and rancher story that he told the story of the captured flying saucer, that type of thing, but that he was being detained by the military for further questioning.

So it was like, now what the hell did dad get himself involved in? So they arrived at the ranch just after 50 to 60 troops. Many of them who we've interviewed, who we tracked down, who spent two and a half to three days, you know, cleaning up every last scrap, every last fragment of that wreckage before they completed the cleanup.

So Bill and Shirley arrive at the ranch and thereafter, months thereafter, whenever there was a heavy rain, pieces would wash to the surface. And Bill would find enough pieces to fill up a cigar box. Well, even his wife Shirley talked about the one piece that he kept in his leather chaps working the ranch day after day. And every evening when he would sit down to dinner and he would take that piece out of his leather chaps,

And she'd watch how no matter how he would try to cut it with his buck knife or he'd hold his lighter up to it, nothing ever had any effect on it. And then he'd always crumble it up and lay it down and she'd watch as it would just flow, just smooth right out to its original shape and size. So it was some time after that, Bill was in the nearest town of Corona and he was playing pool one evening with some friends. And the subject came up.

And it was like, well, Bill, you know, your dad got in all that trouble over, you know, pieces of a balloon. Did you ever manage to find anything yourself? Well, he made the mistake of acknowledging, as he put it. Yeah, well, I found a few scraps, as he put it, and who should be at his door the very next morning with three noncommissioned officers.

Speaker 3 (52:44.556)
but a captain who we tracked down and confirmed his name was Emerson Armstrong. He was out of Fort Bliss at that time. And they retrieved the wreckage that Bill was holding on to. This was two years after the incident. They were still watching. They and they retrieved every last piece. And then when they had

Bill Jr. take them out to the debris field location and he showed them where he had found these pieces and they looked around and were satisfied there was nothing else there. While Bill was away from the ranch house. Three other non-commissioned officers ransacked the house. They slid open bags of feed. They tipped over a water tank in an effort to make sure that nothing remained.

in the Brazzo possession. All that effort, or pieces of a weather balloon, or pieces of a plane, or pieces of a rocket, or pieces of anything else you want it to be, but I'm sorry this was two years after the incident. Right. That's how important this wreckage was that they retrieved every last piece of

And in the book, you describe how the site, it was like a double or I forget how many fences. And the way you had it patrolled, the perimeter at the site. Boy, that's a lot of security for a weather balloon, like you say.

lot of security and there were checkpoints and in fact they even cordoned off the entire city of Roswell. You could not get into Roswell, you could not leave Roswell at the time. In fact even the contract driver who had to go up to Amarillo, Texas to pick up additional child-sized caskets

Keith (54:50.434)
That was my next thing. was hoping you would talk.

He and his son arrived back at Roswell. They couldn't get back into town. They had a circle completely around and come in from the west side of town just to deliver the caskets to the Ballard Funeral Home, which was on contract with the Roswell Army Airfield. And they were the ones, the base hospital had made the phone calls as to the availability of child-sized caskets.

Now why would you need child-sized caskets or crash and recovery of a weather balloon?

And not only that, but you remind me when you talk about the funeral home and the child-sized caskets, I believe, correct me if wrong, on the flight to Fort Worth, isn't that where somebody saw...

an old mortician.

Keith (55:50.019)
And they, it was like, hey buddy, you know, it's like, and no talking on this flight. So,

Now, remember I mentioned that Brazel first complained about the horrible stench. Right. We have heard that over and over again, whether it was out at a site, whether it was on route to the base, whether it was at the hangar where everything would transit through or whether it was at the base hospital. Now, south of the base,

was a large fire as far as garbage extermination, burning site. So we learned that they had erected a eight foot tall fence with a large tent that was under a heavy guard the late evening of July 8th.

and we tracked down the people who were posted at that tent. The next morning when they arrived to assume as far as again that post, the tent was gone, the fence was gone, and they saw the heavy tracks of a B-29 bomber that had circled and then it headed north back up to

which we were then able to determine was bomb pit number one, bomb site number one, which is where they would keep one of the atomic bombs. And that is where the afternoon of July 9th, Wednesday, July 9th, a B-29 bomber by the name of the necessary evil.

Speaker 3 (57:53.326)
would taxi over the bomb pit, which was under a heavy guard and a large rectangular wooden crate would be loaded into the bomb bay of the B-29. We tracked down as many of the crew members who were on that flight. We have a copy of the manifest of that flight. The flight went directly to Fort Worth. It was under heavy guard.

It flew below 10,000 feet because the bomb bay was not as far as under air pressure. Pressurized. And they arrive at Fort Worth and it was a bombardier by the name of First Lieutenant Felix Martucci who immediately recognized with the officers waiting on the tarmac a mortician.

He had gone to school with now. Why is a mortician waiting for this crate? He would be bored the plane while the crate was being unloaded. He would reacquaint himself with his old college buddy. He would get back on the plane and he would immediately make the comment boys. We just made history. And they then realize what was in the crate.

It was the second body flight from the crash. So again, balloons don't have pilots. Balloons don't have pilots.

boy,

Keith (59:30.663)
No, no, and we need to talk about the bodies. Brad, ask your question.

I was just gonna say the the one thing that I did one of the things I came away with after reading the book was the fact that You were so thorough in connecting all of the threads It wasn't just you know Bob said to Kevin over here that you know his cousin's third Whatever if they said that you tracked them down and synced up all of the stories Which answered the questions of well, they were drunk well, no because they you know, they couldn't drink whatever it was

you asked all the right questions. It's almost like you did journalism.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, because...

see anymore.

Speaker 3 (01:00:15.244)
Because you make an excellent point, that as I've often reminded people in the mainstream media, whenever you do an interview and you write the person off, you dismiss the story as, can't believe this or I won't believe this. Do you ever walk away and just ask yourself, what if they're telling the truth? I might be wrong.

I'm, you know, effectively just disqualifying this person just because I don't like what they're telling me. But the truth is often like that. And you need to revisit, you need to then and the wonderful thing about so many investigations are very linear. They move in a straight line. Ours has been very circular that every time you speak to another witness, it will generate questions.

Yeah, yes, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:01:12.184)
for earlier witnesses, you then retrace, you go back to them because new information then requires that you go back and then readdress, you know, earlier information. So it's circular. It proceeds forward, but you have to be fluid and flexible enough that you never cut off anyone.

It's why one of the reasons like Walter Hott, who was the public information officer, I went back to him for 15 years that I just never gave up on him till he finally, you know, signed off on a posthumous, a deathbed, you know, statement that would come out after he was gone. So I guess persistence really paid off.

Yeah.

Keith (01:02:04.771)
Yeah.

What year did you start working on Roswell?

1989 as a total skeptic. thought we would make a weekend, you know, jaunt down to the land of enchantment, you know, as it's called. know, within a weekend, come away. So it was this. It was that it was something prosaic. It was something conventional and walk away. Mission accomplished. But the quickly observed that whether it was retired military

or civilian, that especially as they were describing the wreckage, they were describing the exact detail, they were describing the exact qualities that we just realized this doesn't resemble anything we even have by today's standards. So there we're asking ourselves, what if we're wrong? Yeah. In our skepticism, we can hardly just at the

at the prospect that we might, we may be dealing with the story of the millennium here, the biggest story in the last thousand years. And how do you walk away from that?

Keith (01:03:17.43)
Right. And I did a poll a few weeks ago after you and I had coordinated this conversation, Don. And I said, what is the biggest, I forgot how I worded it, maybe it was biggest cover up in US history. the options were 9-11, COVID-19, JFK, Roswell. And Roswell only got 6%. But I'm telling you,

You read this book and it's not I'm going to repost that poll after this conversation and see where that number stands, because you're right, man. There is so much the the the the impact of this story. It reaches so many areas. And like we've been saying, it's so thorough and you've talked to so many people in and their descriptions, whether it's the material.

whether it's the crash site, whether it's the bodies, they're all so similar that if it were a police lineup, you would have to believe this story. So let's now talk about the bodies that people have described in various settings, whether it's at the site, at the hangar, at the hospital, and beyond. Talk to us about those.

Well, also keeping in mind that, and I can't emphasize enough, this was something unprecedented. There were no UFO books at the time. Even Hollywood's portrayal of aliens at the time, whether it was Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, that type of thing, they were human in appearance. And their spaceships were rocket ships.

It wasn't until the phenomena arrived as it did in that summer of 1947 that all of a sudden they became flying saucers, flying disks. And the visitors, and much to the credit of the witnesses at Roswell, they have never, not a one, ever called them ETs, called them spacemen, even called them, you know, men from outer space.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24.206)
They would talk about the little men, the little bodies, the little people, that type of thing. But then when you would press, like when Phil Jones from CBS 48 Hours, and he pressed one of the personnel from the base from 1947, well, how do you know they weren't from here? To which he responded, well, they sure weren't from Texas. So they clearly...

you

They knew the difference. knew they were dealing and they would say they weren't human, that type of thing.

I think they were like an insect, because I didn't know what a child of the earth insect was. And they described them as the children of the earth insect. And Keith, I grabbed the image here. When I looked at this, I had no idea what a children of the earth was, or a child of the earth.

Yes, right.

Speaker 3 (01:06:17.464)
But that's what they say. The large black eyes.

shape of the face and the eyes. Yeah, and so they use that.

And so they, everyone, whether even the photographers who were involved like Frederick Benthal, the personnel at the base hospital, part of the medical squadron, even the civilians who were involved up to Matt Braz himself, that they were humanoid, our word.

but that they were human in appearance, about three and a half to four feet in height, large disproportionate heads, ash and gray in color, horse eyes, far as just large, far as black pupils, very diminutive as far as nose, thin slit for a mouth, diminutive ears, and then a silver gray one piece

jumpsuit covering from the neck over their feet. Their hands were visible, again ash and gray, cinched at the waist but down to a man and woman involved, all describing even to the color of their garments, their attire.

Brad (01:07:43.918)
And their bones were malleable. Who described their bones as being malleable?

Some of those who were involved at the base hospital that the bones were almost like cartilage, that they were softer, that they were somewhat flexible in that regard. And that it wasn't just a carton, you know, as far as bone marrow, that would be like almost like a piece of wood. Right. they... that's the... you make a good point that the witnesses, as I was describing this, being unprecedented.

And all they could do was describe what they have observed, what they witnessed. And they had nothing to compare this to at the time. And so those who would suggest, well, you know, their failing memories after all these years that they can't be trusted. I always use the example of November 22nd, 1963. Those of us who were alive at that time.

and we will forever remember what we were doing at the time that the news broke, what our immediate thoughts were, what our feelings were. And we weren't in Dealey Plaza down in Dallas at the time. We weren't there, but we will forever remember. The same could be said about 9-11. We will all remember. And we weren't in New York. So please, when you experience something

profound that rises above everything else. And there again, this is a credit to the eyewitnesses. It's like one of the witnesses said to me, Don, it's the first thing I think of when I get up in the morning. And it's the last thing I think about when I go to bed at night.

Keith (01:09:37.954)
Yeah, and the threats to themselves, to their families, to likely their pensions. I mean, you can see how they kept quiet for so long. thank you. Yes.

was early cancel culture.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. That they were honestly told nothing happened here. It didn't happen. Forget it. was like more sad.

Thank

Keith (01:10:02.444)
right, go ahead.

Marcel, you know, he after the flight has been detoured to Fort Worth and he takes a box of the wreckage and he's to report directly to General Ramey's office.

yeah.

And he places the box and General Ramey's desk. And Ramey takes him to a map room to check out the different locations. And when they return, just imagine Marcelo, they come back and the box of wreckage is now gone. And this place scattered on the floor in front of the General's desk is this clump of black rotting neoprene rubber weather balloon and this shredded

radar reflector kite. Now there's a hallway of reporters waiting to see the pieces of the flying saucer just arrive from Roswell and the general only allows one reporter into the room, so much for a press conference. Right. And that was James B. Johnson of the Star Telegram from Fort Worth and Marcel was then ordered by Ramey the crouch down and pose holding up

Speaker 3 (01:11:22.986)
sections of the kite. Those are the pictures that then were splashed all over the wire services. So Marcel officially becomes the Patsy, the fall guy. Yep. It's the picture of General Ramey and then his Chief of Staff Colonel DeBose. This is after Marcel has been ordered to leave the room, not to say a word to any of the reporters

All

Speaker 3 (01:11:49.122)
Not even to say a word of this to his wife back in Roswell. It's again, like it never happened.

And to that it never happened thing, Frankie Rowe, that was when the guy showed up, I think, it?

First Lieutenant Arthur Philbin. And he's over and over again. And if you ever say another word about this, she's 14 years old in her bedroom. And he's doing this tour. didn't see anything. It never happened. And again, I'm sorry. Please.

and he's got the stick in his hand.

Keith (01:12:27.832)
You didn't see anything.

Speaker 3 (01:12:35.63)
Give me another example that they would threaten children over. A weather balloon. As far as anything that was top secret that we were experimenting with. Right.

Okay, go

Yep

Absolutely, Brad, absolutely. And they keep him overnight. Again, it's been explained away. It's over. But they still kept him at Fort Worth. They don't even allow him to go back to Roswell until the next evening. Earlier when I was describing the flight of necessary evil, the B-29 that blew the crate at the mortician.

Speaker 3 (01:13:22.732)
was waiting for. That flight after it turned around to head back to Roswell, guess who was on that flight? Major Marcel. He's even listed in the manifest. So, well, how do you know he was, because there again, we can document it. And it was a day after the weather balloon press conference. He's not allowed to fly back to Roswell till the evening of July 9th, a day after the weather balloon press conference.

The morning of July 10th, he immediately races into the office of counterintelligence in the presence of the entire CIC detachment. And he confronts Captain Cabot. I want to see the report. What happened here while I was gone for those two days in Fort Worth? I want to see the report.

and Cavett kept saying, what report? I don't know what you're talking about. You know what I'm talking about. You were out there with me when we first loaded up all that wreckage. I want to see the report. And Cavett kept responding. I can't help you. I can't answer, you know, anything about the incident. And then Marcel finally went, damn it, Cavett, I outrank you. And that's when Cavett responded. Take it up with Washington.

They're calling the shots. They're in control of the entire situation. So you're absolutely correct, Brad, that Marcel would become the fall guy. But he was also assured time and time again that the truth would all come out someday, that he would be vindicated. He'd be, you exonerated. It would all come out. So he waits five, 10, 15 years. Just be a good soldier, Marcel.

Truth will all come out. So he waits 20, 25 years and he's starting to have a little doubt. 30 years after the incident, he's diagnosed with terminal emphysema and he realizes they're never coming up with the truth. But he does. He goes public. What does he have to lose? He's dying. And that's when he goes public and he makes that statement regarding the wreckage that he held in his hands. And I'll quote him.

Speaker 3 (01:15:51.694)
quote, being familiar with all materials, both foreign and domestic. This was nothing made on this earth, end quote. That's from the number one intelligence officer in the US military at that time. And before he dies, he states that the material of Roswell was not made on this earth. And the United States government is still saying,

all it was still just a balloon.

Ha.

You know, who in their right mind still believes the government over eyewitnesses? Are we that brainwashed? Right, right.

So I want you to describe the scene when the lieutenant governor shows up to witness the bodies.

Speaker 3 (01:16:46.69)
That was Joseph Montoya. And Montoya was there for the dedication of a new plane. In fact, we have pictures of him in Roswell at the time. He would go on to become Senator Little Joe, Senator Joe Montoya. And it's our impression that because he was a state dignitary, he happened to be at the base that they wanted

someone in official capacity to be a witness, to even advise them, now are we doing the right thing? Should we do the right thing? Do you think we should put something out as far as an official level? Or we need you to cooperate. We need you also to serve as a proxy in getting all the civilian and other officials within the state to

cooperate. Right. Okay. there were civilian workers who lived in town, who lived in Roswell. One was Peter Anaya and the other was Ruben Anaya, two brothers, and there was another one by the name of Moses Prasad. And they get a phone call. And it happens to be from Lieutenant Governor because he knew them because they were big campaign supporters.

They were big donors. They would become known as Montoyaistas because they were all of Mexican, Hispanic heritage. So, you know, they were loyal to one another. whether it was Ruben or Peter, one of them gets a phone call. It's Montoya. I'm out at the base. Come and get me. Get me the hell out of here. I'll be at the water tower.

Well, the water tower just happened to be right outside of hangar P3, building 84. It was a B29 hangar where once again, everything was transiting through the wreckage, the craft, the bodies. Everything was going through this one hangar. It's easier to guard and maintain one location than having everything sprinkled around the base.

Speaker 3 (01:19:16.46)
So it was where everything was under heavy guard. So they go to pick him up. He comes out of the hanger. He comes out to the water tower. He's in the back seat. And each one of them described how Montoya had, he was cupping his face and he kept going, you'll never believe it. You'll just never believe it. And he finally says he was staying at the Nixon Hotel.

which was the downtown hotel in Roswell, which we also confirmed. And don't take me back to the hotel. I need a drink. Take me to one of your homes. I need a drink right away. And that's when he finally makes the comment. You'll never believe it. You'll never believe it. They weren't human. They weren't human. And what Montoya will describe to them.

is that he was taken inside the hangar and he saw all this strange wreckage scattered on the floor and off to the side was a tarp and he could see the silhouette, the outline of what seemed to be almost child-sized bodies, smaller bodies, and at the end of the tarp one of them was exposed and he heard it and all at once he heard it moaning.

as though it was in pain. And he saw its knee was cocked at a right angle and it was rocking back and forth. And that's when he went, my God, they're not human. And that's when I need a phone, I need a phone. And it was get me the hell out of here right now. Well, he would tell the brothers, he would tell Peter's wife, Mary.

that if they ever told this story, he would just say, you're a bunch of GD liars, goddamn liars. And I'll report you to the FBI.

Speaker 3 (01:21:25.634)
But we later would confirm the story through all the people involved. Montoya was long gone, but even his family had heard the story handed down. We even tracked down and spoke to a number of the grandchildren that the Lieutenant Governor was shown the wreckage and the bodies at the very hangar that this all went down.

Why was he so freaked out about seeing, I mean, I guess the answer, you know, most people would be it's an alien and you'd freak out if you saw an alien. But is that, mean, is that just his natural human reaction? He just wanted to get the hell away from it because he didn't know what it was. Was he afraid that he had seen something he shouldn't have seen? mean, he's a lieutenant governor after all.

They had no this. had no nothing that they could. Spill a point of reference. This was unprecedented, as I keep saying that it was that shocking and also keeping in mind that this was just nine years after the War of the Worlds broadcast. Yeah. So we had that near panic situation and then it drops off and just the radio broadcast. And now it's come full circle and we're right back.

No point of reference.

Speaker 3 (01:22:46.976)
And now it's the real thing. And now I'm standing here and I'm looking at it and how am I supposed to react to this?

Right, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, especially when when we've got one that is alive and moving still

We have multiple witnesses to that effect. That's from the sheriff's office. We have that from the fire department. And then we have as far as from the photographers who were involved and then the personnel at the hospital, the secretary, Miriam Bush, to the administrator at the hospital. And she saw the live one in one of the OR rooms at the hospital. And then after it, right, Pat, right field in Dayton, Ohio.

It does.

Keith (01:23:32.78)
Right, and so there were reports, I remember correctly from your book, rumors, I guess, really, of just of the creature. Did I remember this correctly? Like, might have lived for years afterward or? OK, OK. Tell us about Nurse Mary and her experience with the body.

Or at least a year.

Speaker 3 (01:23:54.222)
We'll be talking about Mary Low. And Mary Low, her story came to us through her, their housekeeper. And Mary's husband,

He played as far as professional golf and he played as far as on a professional golf tour throughout the United States. And we, knowing nothing more than just that, we didn't have any names, nothing. And that we were able to finally going through the Pro Golf Association

and then those who played in Roswell. And originally they didn't live in New Mexico, so we had to come in through the back door. And we finally approached the mortician at the Ballard funeral home with the question, tell us about Mary Low. And his immediate reaction was, my God, how did you ever find her?

her.

And when we approached then Mary, she had the opposite but identical reaction. Did Glenn Dennis tell you about me?

Speaker 3 (01:25:27.102)
And it turns out it got Glenn in trouble because after we met with Mary the next day, he said, you didn't hear anything about Mary from me as far as I'm concerned. She wasn't involved and don't ever bring her up again. So I'm sure immediately after we parted company with Mary Lowe, she read, she called and then also highly reprimanded him for revealing her as

as a witness. Mary had worked at a private at the private hospital at that time at Saint Mary's Hospital and Saint Mary's Hospital was just north of the base back at that time. And so whenever they had a situation because the Rosaline Airfield did not have a morgue. That's why they were on contract with the Ballot Funeral Home and as hospitals go.

They had a limited staff. had a lot of doctors, but they didn't have a lot of nurses. They had five, six nurses at best. And so they often would call in as necessary if there was a plane crash or as the case with this where they had a crash of something else and they would bring in the likes of a Mary Low to be part of a preliminary autopsy or just being at the ready.

if the doctor staff needed outside assistance. So we could not get Mary to acknowledge anything, just that we had enough people around her that confided to us that yes, she was involved, she was there, even down to her housekeeper who said that Mary told me all about her involvement years before.

Okay, and I'm looking at my notes and I'm watching the clock here and I want to just hit on a couple of these things here.

Brad (01:27:30.882)
Before you move on from the bodies, that's what you're going to do, Keith, can I quickly ask about the there was an autopsy. Yes.

preliminary at the Roswell, then there were more extensive autopsies at Wright Field in Dayton, Ohio. Yes. And that's where Len Springfield had actually interviewed someone who claimed that he was part of the medical staff that was involved in one of the autopsies there in Dayton, Ohio.

And stop me, Don, if you want to add anything to these little bullet points that I wrote for myself here. Barbara Dugger, granddaughter of Sheriff Wilcox. Correct. Recounted consistent family stories of intimidation and secrecy. Again, the intimidation.

why. Well, more than intimidation, what they did to her grandfather, who was the sheriff, he's the number one law officer in the entire county, Chameleon County at that time. And when I originally described how

When the military, when the head of intelligence, Major Jesse Marcel came to the courthouse and retrieved a box of wreckage, which he took back and immediately notified the very base commander, Colonel William Blanchard, there was another box of wreckage that was kept behind at the sheriff's office. And the sheriff had that box hidden in the closet of his office. And the living quarters were his wife and two daughters.

Speaker 3 (01:29:05.366)
lived at the time was just above the front lobby of the courthouse. Well, the two daughters, one was Phyllis McGuire and the other was Elizabeth Tulk. They heard, they would hear the loud roar of jeeps and trucks surrounding the courthouse. Now mind you, this is a day or two after the balloon story had, you know, had stuck. And

Or once they hear men yelling and you know, as far as rushing in through the front entrance through the kitchen entrance through another side door with rifles drawn and they come out into the hallway and they're watching as they bring. Their father out into the lobby.

They twist his arm up behind his back and they push his face up against the wall and they demand that he turn over the wreckage that he had, that he had in this possession that was brought in by the rancher days before, which he immediately would surrender. Well, just imagine it's one thing you're observing as a son or a daughter, your own father being a

And you can't do anything about it because they have rifles drawn. But it's the sheriff no less. And Barbara, you mentioned Barbara Dugger. She's a PhD. And she described how her grandmother

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:30:51.874)
would describe how it would be a day or two later that all of a sudden her husband, the sheriff, is again ordered, he's told, we need you to come out to the base. We still have some additional questions to ask you. And he takes one of his deputies with him because he knows it's going to be probably more than just questions. Right. And they go out.

And when they return, according to the sheriff's family, he was totally be shoveled. His tie was twisted off the one side. He looked like he had been thoroughly roughed up.

And so again, please show me another example where government slash military has done that to a law enforcement officer. This is a sheriff.

didn't he as sheriff didn't he didn't he go to the Inoya brothers and threatened them if they so he kind of dished out

Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:32:02.38)
He served at the proxy. Yes. And that's how they would repay him, that he served because Jared Wilcox also spoke Spanish. So he then also served as the proxy, the enforcer that he could also then go and serve and make threats to those who were more fluent

in Spanish, like the Anaya brothers. And he would repeat those threats that he would say, now, if you ever say another word about this, I can't protect you. The military will then come and take you away or they will physically harm your families. So Wilcox performed, you know, that service and then he's repaid afterwards by being roughed up.

and manhandled and then treated like he was a common thief. And he could have gone onto the base at any time. And if he had reason to believe that the very base commander was guilty of a crime, he could have arrested anyone on that base. And yet they were treating him like he was a criminal. Amazing, amazing.

I somehow don't believe that they would have recognized his authority had he tried to do that. Because they didn't, it appears that they did not follow any sort of respect for the chain of command, if you will. all these civil rights violations, in essence, threatening people, taking away the ransacking, Fourth Amendment, I mean, just all kinds of crazy stuff.

kinds of and that's the thing that's the point Brad that when you have Senator Hatch call up radio station KGFL and even inform them there's nothing I can do to help you. So in other words it had already risen above I mean just imagine the sheriff could have gone to his senator could have gone his congressman you know I need you to do something about this I mean this is a total violation of

Speaker 3 (01:34:25.87)
my constitutional rights. And your senator would say, it's out of my hands. So please, ladies and gentlemen, we have been able to track down all of these witnesses and we have performed due diligence and that we've been able to piece this all together. And the fact that I defy anyone to cite another example.

have.

Speaker 3 (01:34:55.564)
where they essentially rewrote the law. They rewrote the Constitution. They resorted to the most extreme measures to cover this up because there was nothing in the Army Field Manual. There was nothing about how do we deal with the crash of a genuine flying saucer that we have civilian witnesses to. We can order our own people to secrecy, but what do we

due to the civilians who were involved.

Yeah, so I have six other little bullet points. I think I might get all my questions answered. Plus, I want people to get the rest of it from Witness to Roswell. Get Don's book. But tell us about Francis Cassidy, stationed at the base hospital, wore gloves at dinner for weeks, guarding the bodies.

Yeah. We heard her story directly from his widow, and she was witness to the fact that he got called out late one evening that he had some duty, some assignment, and it was going to be out in the elements of the desert. And he wouldn't return for a couple of days. when he did, he took shower after shower after shower.

And it was as though he had been exposed to something. And she would say that he smelled worse than a skunk. And that no matter how often she would wash his fatigues, his clothes, that it was the same thing. And that when he sat down to dinner upon returning home, he was wearing these canvas gloves that he felt as though he was contaminated, that he had been exposed to something that it just

Speaker 3 (01:36:46.252)
He just didn't feel clean about it. Well, they would burn his clothes. They would bury everything. And he never would admit what he had been exposed to. But again, she would surmise that it had something to do with the crash and the talk about the little bin, the people, the little bodies which were recovered, and that he was part of that detail.

that was close enough downwind or close enough, you know, to the immediate proximity of the bodies that he picked up that horrendous, horrendous smell.

Right, right. My goodness, don't know. I'm just looking at these notes here. Sergeant Melvin Brown guarded the bodies packed in dry ice.

Yes. Brownie, he was called, and the fact that we early on, we just assumed that there were entire squadrons or units that were brought in because of their specialty. And in this case, we thought the 1395th, which was the MP unit, that they obviously would have been thoroughly involved as far as setting up the cordon.

and being part of the recovery, the retrieval operation, providing security and overseeing everything as far as with arms. And that was not the case. They selected individuals from units and they brought in outside units that after all the dust clears, you report back to your squadron, you're the lone individual who was involved. You have no one to compare notes with.

Speaker 3 (01:38:38.658)
No one who you can talk to because you've been now sworn to secrecy. So it was ingenious. The way they totally buried the paper trail in all this. And that was the case with Melvin Brown. He was a sergeant with K Squad, with the kitchen staff. Now, a lot of your audience may just go, well, why would they have K Squad? Well, everyone on that base, because of the atomic bomb, had a top security clearance.

So whether you swept the broom or whether you worked at K Squad or whether you were a full bird colonel, you all had a top security clearance for the atomic bomb. So Brown is part of a detachment to go out and be at this crash site. He has no idea what it involves and he's posted behind an ambulance truck and he's told to keep his eyes forward. Well, first chance he gets, nobody's around.

and he lifts the tarp in back of the truck and there are two of these bodies. Well, then he realizes it was all true. All the talk, all the rumor back at the base, it was as described.

I mean, and they drove the truck through the town. people saw.

The convoy, the convoy is the egg-shaped craft about the size of Volkswagen Beetle under a tarp. We even tracked down the two paper boys working, one working for the Roswell Daily Record and the one working for the Roswell Daily Dispatch. And they worked both sides of Main Street as far as there a lot of time. And they watched the convoy come down Main Street before turning on the second street and then going down Alexander.

Speaker 3 (01:40:24.878)
which would have taken them to the East Gate and they were able to avoid the base proper from the front gate and go right across the tarmac to again the B-29 hanger, P-3. And...

And to your point that, I mean, about you're not doing all of this secrecy stuff for a freaking weather balloon. Tell us about the teletype operator, it Lydia Sleppy, who was interrupted mid-transmission of the trash story by the FBI.

She had received a phone call from Johnny McBoyle who worked at KSIM radio station in Roswell. He was at the other radio station and he was out in the field. He was trying to get close enough to get her a story that she could put over the wire services to make it a national story. And she's

trying to, you know, at least put out the initial story that there had been a crash of an actual flying saucer north of Roswell. And as she is typing it up and the teletype machines at that time, and she's up in Albuquerque, she's working with Associated Press and the teletype bell would ring, which would indicate there was another transmission coming in.

And all at once it reads, stop transmission. Repeat, stop transmission. FBI security code, you are not to release any further detail on this story. So now the FBI is also intercepting any outside attempts at breaking the story to the surrounding, you know, as far as country.

Speaker 3 (01:42:28.598)
And so they not only effectively have shut down Roswell, but now they're shutting down the entire state. They're shutting down the wire services, social media press, international press. They're shutting down Reuters at that time. They're making sure that after the balloon story gets out, that they are controlling, that any further talk about it being a flying saucer and especially

there being any talk about there being bodies involved that it has been effectively neutralized.

Okay, so we've talked about the crash, we've talked about the debris, the memory metal, the I-beams, the hieroglyphics, the bodies, the cover-up here. Let's talk about the aftermath, such as the Boeing engineer who... Talk about his deathbed confession about the materials that were confiscated.

That would be, its last name was Loveless.

Where he's talking about how this is not of Earth.

Speaker 3 (01:43:40.642)
That's right. that he lived, I believe he had a place in San Antonio, Texas, as well as he had a stopover in Roswell. And he was heading back to Texas. And all of once he's told they need you out into the desert, that there's a crash site and they want you to look at something. And so here he is, an engineer at Boeing and

he is asked to come look at this strange medal. They're trying to still make every effort to ascertain, is this something top secret? Is this something that we're just not aware of? And so now you have Boeing also taking a look at the wreckage. That in conjunction with Operation Paperclip, which is where at the fall of Berlin, at the end of World War II.

that we grabbed as many of the German scientists as we could. One specifically, Werner von Brahm, who would become head of the Apollo Moon Project. And he was a Nazi, a German Nazi scientist, a rocket scientist. And he would become head of our Apollo program. While they were all being housed at Fort Bliss.

in El Paso, Texas. And we tracked down the families, including one of the doctors. His last name was, I'm drawing a blank at the moment. he was with paperclip and he was second to Von Braun. And they risked.

This you talk about scandal, you talk about the idea that we had all these Nazi scientists that we had saved going into the hands of the Soviet Union where they would have been all summarily executed. But we brought them here to work for us and that they would risk taking a number of these German scientists over to Roswell to also examine, also analyze.

Speaker 3 (01:46:05.986)
the wreckage, we need to, we need you to confirm, we need to know that this isn't anything of a German design. They were making every effort to determine whether it was still something maybe that we weren't aware of. And that even the Nazi, even the paperclip scientists said, this is nothing even close to anything that German technology could have devised back at that time.

What was the just quick question was the cover-up a result of America or the or the military wanting to Use anything they found for a military purpose or was it capitalism in that somebody in Washington realized holy crap this stuff is not from Planet Earth imagine what we could how much money we could or a combination

And Don, before you answer that, that ties in perfectly to my last question, which was going to be, we touched on earlier briefly, all of the patents that came out after the debris was moved to Ohio. So marry that with Brad's question there about the fallout afterwards.

to answer Brad's question, would both both suggestions would suffice in that. First of all, as I mentioned earlier, war of the worlds is still very fresh in their mind. Hoyt Vandenberg, who was chief of staff of the Air Force at that time. That's one of the things that his staff mentioned to us on a number of occasions that Vandenberg kept bringing up war of the worlds that

If we say anything about this, if we acknowledge this in any way, we're going to have the real radio broadcast to deal with. And the other thing is they don't know that this is a vanguard of an approaching invasion. They have absolutely zero answers. And all they can do is stall for time until either something else breaks.

Speaker 3 (01:48:14.924)
I mean, I can imagine the proverbial landing of the White House front lawn. That you'd actually would have a confrontation, a visitation. Well, you got one of ours, so now let us introduce ourselves and we mean you no harm. We're here to help you, that type of thing. Or is it going to be a full-scale invasion? So they're stalling for time until they get answers, but then they're also looking at the military application. Who's going to find the odd butt?

Who's going to be able to reverse engineer the technology? And as a result, if we're able to duplicate any of this hardware, any of this technology, we will have total air supremacy globally. No one will be able to touch us ever again. And so it was a two front approach in that in either case, you're stalling for time.

You're hoping to acquire more information and you're hoping as you then answer your question as far as Keith, the idea that the government slash military doesn't manufacture a single bullet, let alone plane, boat, tank, what have you. So everything is assimilated into the private sector. Everything is bid out, whether it is Boeing, Lockheed, Battelle.

Rand Corporation Hughes aircraft General Electric Bureau standards that type of thing and so there too You have to entrust them with the hope that they too may have a chance at finding the on button Let's see what makes this thing tick right? Let's see if we're able to replicate this technology to any degree And I always joke about it sound like Will Smith and Independence Day where he jumps into the cockpit

and he gets in and he's able to fly this thing like he's done it a hundred times. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. From all indications, we have never been able to bridge the technology. It's that advanced that we just can't figure out, you know, none of this. And as a result, here we are all these years later. And all we could still do was stall for time. The final witnesses passed away. It's one of the reasons that they came up with a third

Speaker 3 (01:50:38.038)
And a fourth explanation. You're hoping that you the remaining first hand witnesses pass away and it becomes cover up complete. And that's the other point. I always joke that husbands try that with your wives. You know, if you don't like this explanation, honey, try this one here. We allow we permit the government to come up with four official explanations to one event.

All right.

Speaker 3 (01:51:08.598)
And the point being there are zero to the subsequent three zero, but we have over 600 to the first one. Which one am I going to believe? Which one am I going to accept? And if the government would need a fifth, they would come out with a fifth one. In fact, that's precisely what the Pentagon spokesperson said when they came up with the

ridiculous notion that we were dealing with anthropomorphic wooden crash dummies. And that was in May of 1997. Yeah. A project. It was based on Project Excelsior and Project High Dive, which did not originate until 1952, five years after the incident. So now we're talking about time travel that this project

back into 1947. know, as ridiculous as that is, none of the naysayers ever questioned that. You know, they're more willing to accept. Well, yeah, they were plastic and wood and metal, six foot tall crash dummies that were wearing jumpsuits and harnesses and parachutes and breathing tanks. And that's what the witnesses.

mistakenly identified as alien back in 1947 and they time traveled from 52 back to 47.

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:52:45.044)
So the Pentagon spokesperson has asked, well what if the public doesn't believe this explanation? To which he then responded, well then we'll be back in another few years offering another explanation. Incredible.

Yep.

It was when the encounter with Mac Brazel, I can't remember who it was he ran into at lunch or breakfast. And they asked him again about the crash. And he said, if I told you what I know, they would kill you. is when I heard that, it gave me goosebumps because it's exactly when I was talking, when I lived in Lancaster, California, the test pilots.

from Edwards would hang over at my friend's parents pool and it was either Tom Pugh or Bob Riedenauer who I asked tell me about UFOs because I was working on a series of UFOs for the Nashville Network at the time and they said to me if I told you what I know about UFOs we'd both be dead and these were the pilots of the YouTube and the SR and all of that and so they knew stuff

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:53:56.982)
Excellent point, Brad. And the point being, I can't believe it's over some video or it's over a sharp picture. It's got to be for the fact that they have hardware. They have technology. They can prove it. It's not just a fleeting glimpse of something in the nighttime sky. Now you see it, now you don't. It's because they know for a fact that we're dealing with technology off the planet.

And that's where if I divulge that, your life and my life is not worth anything. That's how big this secret would have to amount to before it would become that life threatening.

and I want to respect your time Don I know you have to run I want to let you go but I also want to thank you so much not only for your two hours today but for how thorough this book is Witness to Roswell please y'all if you read one book about UFOs and aliens this is the one Witness to Roswell by Thomas Carey but get the new one

But get the new

Keith (01:55:11.226)
I'm gonna have to borrow Brad's to get more information. Don, it's been a pleasure.

I enjoyed it. I respect both of you. did a great job. Let's do it again. There's a lot more and we haven't even touched on Wright-Patterson yet.

Yeah, OK, so that's all right. Then we will have another conversation in the future. And I will do my best. I will be in Roswell in August. I hope you are at the same time, I hope we cross paths. I know our schedules are crazy, but I want to meet you and I want to see the museum there in Roswell. out to see that as well, folks. There's so much information here. Don, I'm going to let you go.

Thank sir, we'll talk again soon. Take care guys, look forward to part two.

Absolutely. Bye-bye now. Woo! That was awesome, huh? That was so Well, that's when my trip out west is gonna be,

Brad (01:56:06.166)
I until August to go.

Brad (01:56:10.712)
but the UFO festival in Roswell is in July.

Oh no, I might have to read, might have to rearrange my schedule. book is so great. It is, I don't read nearly as much as I used to. And that's, that's on me. This book, I could not put down, brother. And, and I put it up there with Atlas Shrugged. Um, I put it up there with To Kill a Mockingbird.

Was I weekend.

Brad (01:56:24.888)
You know.

Keith (01:56:41.96)
and Witness to Roswell, know, and my Calvin Coolidge books too. But I'm telling you, y'all, if there's one book this summer that you need to read, it's Witness to Roswell. And I look forward to part two sometime. I'm so grateful that he wants to come back and talk about all the Wright-Patterson stuff, because that's a whole other part of this. Okay, so Brad, tomorrow at 3 p.m. Eastern, and by the way, y'all share this conversation. Y'all...

If you have a friend that's on the fence or is a skeptic, send them this interview or buy them a copy of this book.

Zo I think is kind of fake. Zo knows is a bit of a skeptic, but I'm telling you, once you, you have to read the book because the way that they tied all of the ends of the threads together is like, well, what about, and they go, well, this, mean, they've really, I mean, he's been working on it for 36 years.

So good.

Keith (01:57:42.744)
The that I appreciate so much is that if it was a dead end or if it was someone maybe had a character flaw, they pointed that out. were like, yeah, you know, maybe you could discount this guy because he has.

Dennis, the mortician.

And so I appreciate a that will actually, they didn't have to do that. They didn't have to tell us that information that, know, hey, there's somebody out there saying this, but maybe we take it with a grain of salt. And so I'm grateful for the way they wrote the book. So I look forward to having Don on in the future for sure. And then don't forget, Brad, I've already committed you to tomorrow at 3 p.m. Eastern as well. Did you know that?

Did you know that? Brad, you're on tomorrow at 3 p.m. Eastern for the Friday live stream. My friend Zainab Yenisei, who just got back from, she's always just getting back from traveling overseas. She will join us as well. So that'll be some fun. Yeah, Brad, I've got you down for like, I don't know, like every episode going forward. I hope your schedule's clear. Is that cool?

Yeah, anyway, now you do. So that's good. So thank you to everyone who tuned in. If you missed any of this, go back and watch it. It'll also be YouTube and Rumble tonight, 7 o'clock. Thank you to Wes for doing that. Spotify, iTunes, you name it, it'll be there. And of course, check out Instagram where Gabby keeps the videos coming there. So and then Brad, by the way, I don't know if you know this or not, tomorrow.

Keith (01:59:21.71)
3 PM Eastern. You are scheduled to join me again. So make sure that you're available. All right, brother. Thank you for joining me for this awesome conversation. Now I'm going to post that poll again. And I'm going to see if, so be looking on X here in just a moment. I'm going to repost that poll and see if more than 6 % think this was the biggest cover up in the history of our government. Anyway.

be sick of me by now.

Keith (01:59:48.248)
Thank you to everyone. Thank you, Brad. I'll see you all tomorrow, 3 PM Eastern. Brad, you're going to be here tomorrow at 3 PM Eastern, too. I don't know if you're aware of that.

Someone told me that once, but I...